Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 
Send Topic Print
Who is the real historical jesus ? (Read 38179 times)
Setanta
Gold Member
*****
Offline


\/ Peace man!

Posts: 15851
Northern NSW
Gender: male
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #105 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 11:59pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 9:25pm:
Auggie wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
Ajax wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
I also believe that Jesus was the son of God firstly because no man in his right mind would go around proclaiming such a thing and also because of the words he spoke, no ordinary man could ever love humanity in that way, second because of the miracles he performed and thirdly because of the people that made up his disciples.


Ok, first of all, I have great respect for Jesus as a human being. The supposed 'miracles' he performed were not what he claimed, it was what OTHER PEOPLE claimed he did. The New Testament was written by communities after the Jesus' death, and were depictions of the spiritual experience they witnessed in Christ.

Second, if you claim that Jesus did what he did because he was divine, then in my opinion, this diminishes his achievements as a human being, because: "... yeah, but he's God..." Think of a tightrope walker who has a net under him; that's what it's like. What made Jesus incredible was precisely the fact that HE WAS HUMAN and did what he did. That's true power. When he entered into Jerusalem on a donkey proclaiming that he was the King of the Jews, he knew exactly where he was headed - to his torture, crucifixion, and ultimately death. He made the conscious choice to act in a manner that led to end. Human beings don't behave or act like that. 


I like your general perspective, however, to respect him, I would require more knowledge of the man than what is actually in the record.


Grin Diplomatically put and well said.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Amadd
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Mo

Posts: 6217
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #106 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 1:11am
 
Setanta wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 11:59pm:
issuevoter wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 9:25pm:
Auggie wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
Ajax wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
I also believe that Jesus was the son of God firstly because no man in his right mind would go around proclaiming such a thing and also because of the words he spoke, no ordinary man could ever love humanity in that way, second because of the miracles he performed and thirdly because of the people that made up his disciples.


Ok, first of all, I have great respect for Jesus as a human being. The supposed 'miracles' he performed were not what he claimed, it was what OTHER PEOPLE claimed he did. The New Testament was written by communities after the Jesus' death, and were depictions of the spiritual experience they witnessed in Christ.

Second, if you claim that Jesus did what he did because he was divine, then in my opinion, this diminishes his achievements as a human being, because: "... yeah, but he's God..." Think of a tightrope walker who has a net under him; that's what it's like. What made Jesus incredible was precisely the fact that HE WAS HUMAN and did what he did. That's true power. When he entered into Jerusalem on a donkey proclaiming that he was the King of the Jews, he knew exactly where he was headed - to his torture, crucifixion, and ultimately death. He made the conscious choice to act in a manner that led to end. Human beings don't behave or act like that. 


I like your general perspective, however, to respect him, I would require more knowledge of the man than what is actually in the record.


Grin Diplomatically put and well said.


Seek and ye shall find......sweet FA.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Raven
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2981
Around
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #107 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 4:22am
 
Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 12:06pm:
Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:
The problem Yadda is that your god doesn't exist. Certainly not in the form you think he takes.



Not true.

why?


Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:

You believe your god is loving, just and perfect.



Correct and true.




Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:

He gives bone cancer to children, allowing them to suffer in agony until they die, that's very loving.



Not true.

God gave us the freedom to make moral choices.

When we and our parents make poor moral choices, there are always consequences.

[edit pointless biblical quotes]

'poor moral choices' ?

Jesus titty f.ucking Christ. Do you listen to yourself? Innocent children get cancer because they are immoral? Children get cancer because their parents "make poor moral choices"

What a loving god! Our god is so loving he punishes innocent children for the "crimes" of their parents.


Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:

A good man who loves and cares for his family, who helps others without needing to be asked is bound for hell because he does not believe in god. A child rapist and murderer who accepts Jesus in his heart suffers no punishment and is rewarded with paradise for eternity.



Not true.

Oh! A non believer can go to heaven? Then what is the point of religion?


Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:

This is not how a perfect being behaves.



Correct and true.

Good to see you realise "god" is not perfect.


Raven wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:43pm:

This god gave us faults and then punishes us for eternity for the faults he gave us.



Not true.

God gave us the freedom to make moral choices.





And then punishes us for exercising that choice.
Back to top
 

Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
IP Logged
 
Auggie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #108 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:35am
 
Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 10:06pm:
Auggie wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
Ajax wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
I also believe that Jesus was the son of God firstly because no man in his right mind would go around proclaiming such a thing and also because of the words he spoke, no ordinary man could ever love humanity in that way, second because of the miracles he performed and thirdly because of the people that made up his disciples.



Ok, first of all, I have great respect for Jesus as a human being. The supposed 'miracles' he performed were not what he claimed, it was what OTHER PEOPLE claimed he did.

The New Testament was written by communities after the Jesus' death, and were depictions of the spiritual experience they witnessed in Christ.




Some people are unable to believe that God, the creator, could [or would] manifest himself, 'in the flesh', as a man.       [but if you believe scripture, he did once before.    see Genesis 18]


Regarding the veracity of the New Testament text, we must individually come to either accept, or reject, what the New Testament says, as being authentic and true.




Regarding the veracity of any information which is presented to us Moses law gives this advice.....


Deuteronomy 19:15
.....at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.



Regarding the testimony of multiple witnesses.....

--------- >

Matthew 17:1
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4  Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5  While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6  And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.


John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


1 Corinthians 15:1
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.





n.b.
YOU may choose to not accept the record of those witnesses.

But, the record and account of those multiple witnesses exists.



On Jesus divinity.....

--------- >

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2  The same was in the beginning with God.
3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Jesus said,

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.


John 12:45
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.


John 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?




See, this is the thing, Yadda: you seem to take all religious scripture LITERALLY as though they are inerrant and infallible. Let me tell you now that NOTHING OR NO ONE IS INFALLIBLE OR INERRANT and to do so is to be subject to exploitation and be at the whim of religious institutions.

USE YOUR BRAIN and come to your own conclusions. At the end of the day, you are entitled to believe or practise your religion as you wish; that is what it means to live in a free society.

Don't fall into the same thinking as fundamentalists (in all faith traditions). Use rationale. I don't believe in a theistic God, but I have the greatest respect for Jesus, and considered myself a Christian. You might say that 'I'm chopping and changing' and 'cherry-picking' or 'whatever' and I KNOW. I have a brain and I am using rational thinking to come to my conclusions.
Back to top
 

The Progressive President
 
IP Logged
 
Amadd
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Mo

Posts: 6217
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #109 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 10:49pm
 
Quote:
I also believe that Jesus was the son of God firstly because no man in his right mind would go around proclaiming such a thing and also because of the words he spoke, no ordinary man could ever love humanity in that way, second because of the miracles he performed and thirdly because of the people that made up his disciples.



What if Nazareth never even existed?


Back to top
« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2017 at 8:11am by Amadd »  
 
IP Logged
 
Amadd
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Mo

Posts: 6217
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #110 - Mar 16th, 2017 at 12:48am
 
Quote:
THE STORY OF JESUS
There are three distinct theories on who Jesus was:
Deity: Jesus was the son of God who came to earth in human form.
Evemerism: Jesus was a man who was later deified.
Myth: Jesus never existed. The whole story is a myth.
1. It's inconceivable that during the alleged time of Jesus no one bothered to write down anything about this most extraordinary person, yet the extensive historical record of that time makes no mention of Jesus.

2. The motif of a crucified savior God who dies and is resurrected already existed in many other religions prior to the alleged time of Jesus. The parallels between Jesus and these other preexisting religious saviors were so strong that early church fathers resorted to the desperate claim that the Devil had deviously copied the true story of Jesus before it actually happened in an attempt to mislead the gullible.

3. Jesus begins his one year ministry by visiting John who baptizes with water. The Sun begins its yearly journey by visiting Aquarius, the water bearer. Jesus leaves John, who is put in prison, and visits Simon and Andrew, two fishermen. The Sun leaves Aquarius, who goes below the horizon, and visits Pisces, the two fish. The remarkable parallels continue.

Jesus, who never existed, whose story existed prior to his alleged time, is a personification of the Sun, which dies in Winter and is resurrected in Spring, saving us from the evil of cold and darkness. The story is an allegory misinterpreted as history.


http://www.solarmythology.com/index.htm
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Amadd
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Mo

Posts: 6217
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #111 - Mar 26th, 2017 at 10:33pm
 
Give it 10 or 20 years and people will no longer be afraid to discuss the probability that Jesus never really existed as an actual person.

If I was an egotist, I would consider myself ahead of the times, but I am not that type.

It's time that we call religion for what it is. ie:  a bastardisation, for money and power, of ritualistic celebrations that marked seasonal changes based on scientifically discovered planetary movements.

Can't get a debate in an "atheist" room? Go figure.

Back to top
« Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2017 at 10:54pm by Amadd »  
 
IP Logged
 
issuevoter
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 9200
The Great State of Mind
Gender: male
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #112 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 9:12am
 
You might be able to get a debate going, but no one wants to hear a lecture on what they should believe. That's the whole problem with Yadda and It Is The Light.
Back to top
 

No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.
 
IP Logged
 
Amadd
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Mo

Posts: 6217
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #113 - Apr 4th, 2017 at 11:05am
 
Really? I'm lecturing?

All's I'm saying is "debate me" on the existence of Jesus.

Is that too much to ask?

So I'm in the same basket as Yadda and Light as far as you're concerned, just because I raise a point on the appropriate thread?
Back to top
« Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2017 at 11:16am by Amadd »  
 
IP Logged
 
issuevoter
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 9200
The Great State of Mind
Gender: male
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #114 - Apr 4th, 2017 at 2:26pm
 
Please accept my apology. You are not lecturing. I didn't like your tone, but the internet, as wonderful as it is, has no capacity for nuance.

I am not an expert on Christian history, but the appearance of the Christians in Rome, in nothing but a few generations after the said execution of Christ, lends an authenticity to the legend of such a mortal man. That Tacitus goes to the trouble of citing the execution, is about as reliable a non-Christian source as we are likely to find.

History records individuals who have shunned worldliness and advised against its excesses. Confucius, Buddha, Socrates, and many others. I see Jesus as one of these. Their altruism was always strained through the sieve of their own tribal experience. With the Hindi, we have all the weird gods with animal heads and multiple arms, to get by before we can even begin to figure out what they were on about. And what all the Cadbury's chocolate around statues of Buddha has to do with Buddhism beats me.

The Jews, Muzlims, and Christians all come from the same ME tribal origin. In their particular fixation, there is only one God. Of course that was heretic in Pagan times, but ultimately, it does not make any difference whether we believe on one God or many, but it was one of the gimmicks Christians used to sell Christianity. Jesus's divine origin being the other.

One thing is for sure, it worked. The Christians had taken their cue from Abraham's hot line to God, and Mohamed got on the bandwagon, if a bit late. Of course you cannot have too many people claiming to talk to God before it starts looking like Sunday morning TV programs in Alabama.

The origin of Jesus is murky, but believable. Unfortunately, his story has been exaggerated to a ridiculous level, which in the end, deflects the follower from his humanity.
Back to top
 

No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.
 
IP Logged
 
Setanta
Gold Member
*****
Offline


\/ Peace man!

Posts: 15851
Northern NSW
Gender: male
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #115 - Apr 5th, 2017 at 12:13am
 
I don't care to debate something that I have no belief in. Whether he was historical or not matters not, it's irrelevant. If you want an appropriate thread to get a debate going, I'd suggest a Christian one. Those who do not believe are unlikely to have any interest, those that have bought into the scam of religion will defend it to the death.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Amadd
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Mo

Posts: 6217
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #116 - Apr 6th, 2017 at 3:14am
 
Setanta wrote on Apr 5th, 2017 at 12:13am:
I don't care to debate something that I have no belief in. Whether he was historical or not matters not, it's irrelevant. If you want an appropriate thread to get a debate going, I'd suggest a Christian one. Those who do not believe are unlikely to have any interest, those that have bought into the scam of religion will defend it to the death.


Setanta, this is a thread asking "Who is the real historical Jesus?".

Personally, from what I have come to know, I think it's far more likely that he was/is an allegorical figure depicting the sun, and never was a real person at all.

The reasons are numerous and one also needs to be able to imagine the world as it was then, not as it is now, to understand this point of view.

If indeed, Jesus was/is an astrological figure, then the "scam" of religion becomes far less powerful and far less relevant. As things stand now, religions are still unfairly holding back progress IMO.



Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Setanta
Gold Member
*****
Offline


\/ Peace man!

Posts: 15851
Northern NSW
Gender: male
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #117 - Apr 6th, 2017 at 3:23am
 
Amadd wrote on Apr 6th, 2017 at 3:14am:
Setanta wrote on Apr 5th, 2017 at 12:13am:
I don't care to debate something that I have no belief in. Whether he was historical or not matters not, it's irrelevant. If you want an appropriate thread to get a debate going, I'd suggest a Christian one. Those who do not believe are unlikely to have any interest, those that have bought into the scam of religion will defend it to the death.


Setanta, this is a thread asking "Who is the real historical Jesus?".

Personally, from what I have come to know, I think it's far more likely that he was/is an allegorical figure depicting the sun, and never was a real person at all.

The reasons are numerous and one also needs to be able to imagine the world as it was then, not as it is now, to understand this point of view.

If indeed, Jesus was/is an astrological figure, then the "scam" of religion becomes far less powerful and far less relevant. As things stand now, religions are still unfairly holding back progress IMO.



There may well have been an historical Jesus, the god bothers of old that followed him may well have aligned him with the many other gods of old with virgin birth, astronomical happenings etc. They are not mutually exclusive. Personally I don't care.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
issuevoter
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 9200
The Great State of Mind
Gender: male
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #118 - Apr 6th, 2017 at 6:44am
 
Alongside this question is just what people mean by "Faith."
Back to top
 

No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.
 
IP Logged
 
Amadd
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Mo

Posts: 6217
Re: Who is the real historical jesus ?
Reply #119 - Apr 6th, 2017 at 10:09am
 
issuevoter wrote on Apr 6th, 2017 at 6:44am:
Alongside this question is just what people mean by "Faith."


If it is a fact that biblical stories are (or were) largely pertaining to planetary movement, then there would be a realistic faith in the magi (or astronomers) who could predict future events.

As far as a person such as Jesus actually existing, the idea is ridiculous.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 
Send Topic Print