Australian Politics Forum - Science shows isam is violent

Mattyfisk

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #15 - Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 8:59am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 8:35am:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 8:52pm:

Indonesia is the 4th biggest country in the world, and you 'predict' it might make it into the top 10? If it made it to 4th position that would be on par with it's population. Australia has a higher GDP than Indonesia, with less than 1/10th of it's population, and I don't hear anyone calling Australia an economic superpower.

Nevertheless, its a tribute to Indonesia's stability and social and political cohesion.

Strangely enough, Indonesia appears to prove FD's democracy and economic growth thesis. For some reason, FD doesn't see this.

I'm curious. I wonder why this is.

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Yadda

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #16 - Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 9:45am

issuevoter wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 9:29pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 7:20pm:

SANITY shows that Islam is doomed.

Which Islamophobe said THIS????

“You can not reform a religion. If they are reformed, [the original meaning] is separated from it. Therefore, modern Muslims and a modern Islam is already impossible. If there is no separation between religion and state, there will be no democracy especially without equality for women. Then we will keep a theocratic system. So it will end.”

“Arabs have no more creative force. Islam does not contribute to intellectual life, it suggests no discussion. It is no longer thought. It produces no thinking, no art, no science, no vision that could change the world. This repetition is the sign of its end. The Arabs will continue to exist, but they will not make the world better.”

The remarks are in reference to the broader questions of how he sees the Middle East, and specifically his native Syria which has been in a state of civil war for years. [he] describes the totality of Islam in the life of people in the Islamic world saying Muslim society is “based on a totalitarian system. The religion dictates everything: How to run, how to go to the toilet, who one has to love…”
http://www.welt.de/kultur/literarischewelt/article152319848/Ein-moderner-Islam-i...

Er..... the writer regarded as the greatest Arabic language poet alive today has said Islam cannot be modernised. Adunis Asbar, known by his pen name Adonis, is a Syrian-born writer often considered one of the greatest living poets of the Arabic language. He has come under criticism for comments he made recently about Islam before receiving the Erich Maria Remarque Peace Prize, named after the famous pacifist and author of the classic World War One novel ‘All Quiet on the Western Front’.

Gandy, you are on the losing side. It's Berlin, March 1945 for Islam. Get out while you can.

Sanity shows?

That implies that those who defend and appease Islam are not sane.

That is clearly untrue.

You cannot say Obama is insane; misguided perhaps.

Dictionary;
insane = =
1 in or relating to an unsound state of mind; seriously mentally ill.
2 extremely foolish; irrational.

QUESTION;
Is Barak Obama 'irrational', or simply a deceitful person who is [for his own purposes] telling everyone, what he wants/needs them to believe ?

Google;
obama, islam, 'tolerance and the dignity of all human beings'

Quote:

Obama’s quotes on Islam:

1. “The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam”

2. “The sweetest sound I know is the Muslim call to prayer”

3. “We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world — including in my own country.”

4. “As a student of history, I also know civilization’s debt to Islam.”

5. “Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance.”

6. “Islam has always been part of America”

7. “we will encourage more Americans to study in Muslim communities”

8. “These rituals remind us of the principles that we hold in common, and Islam’s role in advancing justice, progress, tolerance, and the dignity of all human beings.”

9. “America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles of justice and progress, tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.”

10. “I made it clear that America is not – and will never be – at war with Islam.”

11. “Islam is not part of the problem in combating violent extremism – it is an important part of promoting peace.”

12. “So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed”

13. “In ancient times and in our times, Muslim communities have been at the forefront of innovation and education.”

14. “Throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.”

15. “Ramadan is a celebration of a faith known for great diversity and racial equality”

16. “The Holy Koran tells us, ‘O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another.’”

17. “I look forward to hosting an Iftar dinner celebrating Ramadan here at the White House later this week, and wish you a blessed month.”

18. “We’ve seen those results in generations of Muslim immigrants – farmers and factory workers, helping to lay the railroads and build our cities, the Muslim innovators who helped build some of our highest skyscrapers and who helped unlock the secrets of our universe.”

19. “That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn’t. And I consider it part of my responsibility as president of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.”

20. “I also know that Islam has always been a part of America’s story.”

Google

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #17 - Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 10:07am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 8:35am:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 8:52pm:

Indonesia is the 4th biggest country in the world, and you 'predict' it might make it into the top 10? If it made it to 4th position that would be on par with it's population. Australia has a higher GDP than Indonesia, with less than 1/10th of it's population, and I don't hear anyone calling Australia an economic superpower.

Nevertheless, its a tribute to Indonesia's stability and social and political cohesion.

Sambas riots       1999    deaths 3,000 In the Sambas riots in 1999 Muslim Malays and Animist Dayaks joined together to massacre the Muslim Madurese during the Sambas conflict. Madurese were mutilated, raped, and killed by the Malays and Dayaks and 3,000 of them died in the massacres, with the Indonesian government doing little to stop the violence.[1]

May 1998 riots of Indonesia    4–8 and 12–15 May 1998    deaths 5,000    There were dozens of documented accounts of ethnic Chinese women being raped. Other sources note over 1,500 people were killed and over 468 (168 victims in Jakarta alone) were mass gang-raped in the riots. There is a possibility of 5000 dead. However, most of the people who died in the riots were the Javanese Indonesian looters who targeted the Chinese shops, not the Chinese themselves, since the looters were burnt to death in a massive fire.[4][5][6][7][8]

Indonesian killings of 1965–1966             October 1965-March 1966    deaths 400,000 to 2 million       Transition to the New Order

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Indonesia

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92258 Gender:	Re: Science shows isam is violent Reply #18 - Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 10:22am Yadda wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 9:45am: Dictionary; insane = = 1 in or relating to an unsound state of mind; seriously mentally ill. 2 extremely foolish; irrational. Thanks, Y.
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Yadda

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #19 - Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 11:34am

Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 10:22am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 9:45am:

Dictionary;
insane = =
1 in or relating to an unsound state of mind; seriously mentally ill.
2 extremely foolish; irrational.

Thanks, Y.

You are welcome.

More from my Dictionary, for Karnal.

----------- >

Dictionary;
lie#2 = = an intentionally false statement.       a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression:

Dictionary;
sophistry = = the use of fallacious arguments, especially to deceive.    a fallacious argument.

.

MOSLEMS INTENTIONALLY LIE ABOUT, OR MISREPRESENT, THEIR 'FAITH'...
EXAMPLE #1;

Following the slaughter of Drummer Lee Rigby in 2013, on an English street,       ...a public statement was made by,

The muslim council of Britain

- the umbrella organisation representing all British muslims.

And that statement was published on

The muslim council of Britain

website.

Quote:

Rejecting Terror
Thursday, 11 April 2013

Muslims everywhere consider all acts of terrorism that aims to murder and maim innocent human beings utterly reprehensible and abhorrent.

There is no theological basis whatsoever for such acts in our faith.

The very meaning of the word 'Islam' is peace.

It [ISLAM] rejects terror and promotes peace and harmony.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2307:mcbnewstemplate&catid=82:mcb-news

http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-656

dead links ? those statements were posted on,

The Muslim Council of Britain

, website, in just 2013.
but those links are now dead.
but how could that be ???

You would have thought that the MCB would have been proud to continue to declare the truth about their faith, emanating from their www site ?

"And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is)."
Koran 2.42

"There is no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clearly from falsehood; whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And God is All-Hearing and All-Knowing."
Koran 2.256

Mr Moslem, on OzPol,

Is a person who does not obey the direct command of Allah, a moslem ?

Or is he a filthy infidel ?

Hot place !

.

MOSLEMS INTENTIONALLY LIE ABOUT, OR MISREPRESENT, THEIR 'FAITH'...
EXAMPLE #2;

Spokesmen for ISLAM will tell anyone who will listen;

THAT IT IS WRONG, AND THAT IT IS TOTALLY AGAINST ISLAMIC LAW, TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Please watch this YT...
A UK moslem community leader, speaking in the wake of the London 7/7 bombing;

Quote:

YT

KILLING OF NON-MUSLIMS IS LEGITIMATE

"...when we say innocent people, we mean moslems."

"....[not accepting ISLAM] is a crime against God."
"...If you are a non-moslem, then you are guilty of not believing in God."
"...as a moslem....i must have hatred towards everything which is non-ISLAM."
"...[moslems] allegiance is always with the moslems, so i will never condemn a moslem for what he does."
"...Britain has always been Dar al Harb [the Land of War]"
"...no, i could never condemn a moslem brother, i would never condemn a moslem brother. I will always stand with my moslem brother....whether he is an oppresser or the oppressed."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Science shows isam is violent Reply #20 - Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 8:37pm If you CHOOSE Islam in 2016, you are a psychopath. Like Mohammed who invented it.
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Soren

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #21 - Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 8:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 8:35am:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 8:52pm:

Indonesia is the 4th biggest country in the world, and you 'predict' it might make it into the top 10? If it made it to 4th position that would be on par with it's population. Australia has a higher GDP than Indonesia, with less than 1/10th of it's population, and I don't hear anyone calling Australia an economic superpower.

Nevertheless, its a tribute to Indonesia's stability and social and political cohesion. Yes it follows that a massive country should have massive economic output - but the real achievement is in having a massive country comprised of lots of different ethnicities and communities being able to remain united and prosper.

It prospers only insofar as it ignores and sidelines Islam.

The same goes for any other country without oil - you privilege Islam, you are a f Vcked. Islam is toxic.

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Soren

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #22 - Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 8:40pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 7:38pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 7:20pm:

It's Berlin, March 1945 for Islam.

Good point S - Germany came out of the dark and became an economic superpower Wink

Not something you can say for any Muslim country......

Islam IS all about staying in the dark. Islam IS darkness. unquestioning submission to backward, primitive darkness.

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freediver

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #23 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:33am

Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 8:59am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 8:35am:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 8:52pm:

Indonesia is the 4th biggest country in the world, and you 'predict' it might make it into the top 10? If it made it to 4th position that would be on par with it's population. Australia has a higher GDP than Indonesia, with less than 1/10th of it's population, and I don't hear anyone calling Australia an economic superpower.

Nevertheless, its a tribute to Indonesia's stability and social and political cohesion.

Strangely enough, Indonesia appears to prove FD's democracy and economic growth thesis. For some reason, FD doesn't see this.

I'm curious. I wonder why this is.

Yes it does support the thesis, but it does not have to become an economic superpower to do so, and the thesis should highlight some of the barriers the Indonesian economy is going to face.

Quote:

Yes it follows that a massive country should have massive economic output - but the real achievement is in having a massive country comprised of lots of different ethnicities and communities being able to remain united and prosper.

Except of course for East Timor. Who's next? Aceh? Won't that be a delightful place if it gains independence.

Aceh supports my theory that the liberalism of eastern Muslims reflects the shorter history of Islam. Aceh was one of the first Islamic centres in Indonesia. Today it is one of the most religiously conservative areas, has the highest proportion of Muslims, and the people live "according to shariah laws and customs". How they had the foresight to stick on on a big oil and gas reserve is anyone's guess....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceh

Mattyfisk wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 8:57am:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 8:52pm:

Indonesia is the 4th biggest country in the world, and you 'predict' it might make it into the top 10? If it made it to 4th position that would be on par with it's population. Australia has a higher GDP than Indonesia, with less than 1/10th of it's population, and I don't hear anyone calling Australia an economic superpower.

Sorry, FD, did you just say population?

That's just the reason Indonesia will be listed in the top ten quite soon. The other surprising country?

Pakistan.

This is not based on nominal GDP, but economic growth. Indonesia is already in the G20. Watch it compete with Brazil, Pakistan and possibly even the Philippines for third prize.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves Karnal. It is currently competing for 15th spot. Pakistan is in the 40s, with the 6th largest population. All these countries have to do to improve at the moment is not actively stifle their economies.

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« Last Edit: Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:44am by freediver »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #24 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 10:31am

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:33am:

Aceh supports my theory that the liberalism of eastern Muslims reflects the shorter history of Islam.

It also destroys your theory of Islam spreading by the sword.

Perhaps you can invent another one of your 'elaborate sex-slave breeding program' theories to explain the spread of Islam in SE Asia.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #25 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 10:43am

This is true, but I have never argued that Islam conquered the far eastern extent of it's coverage by following Muhammed's lead. It is kind of difficult to argue that Islam in the east was more tolerant and peaceful at first and then became more conservative and traditional with time while also arguing it arrived by the sword, don't you think Gandalf?

It was the Sufi's who originally brought Islam to Indonesia. Traditional Islam eventually followed. I hope you appreciate the irony here Gandalf.

Sufi Muslims Feel the Heat of Indonesia’s Rising Intolerance

https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/08/15/sufi-muslims-feel-heat-indonesias-rising-intolerance

The plight of the Al-Mujahadah Foundation madrassa in southern Aceh illustrates the perils of rising religious intolerance for Indonesia’s religious minorities. The school, a private institution that instructed dozens of students 8 to 25 years of age in the principles of Sufism — devotion to more mystical interpretations of Islam — lost its dormitory on July 5 due to an apparent arson attack. Less than a month later, on Aug. 1, the wall surrounding the school compound was destroyed in what the school authorities believe was an act of vandalism. Police are investigating the alleged arson attack, but say the school’s wall collapsed due to faulty construction.

Suspicions that the school has been singled out for harassment and intimidation aren’t unwarranted. In February, Aceh’s Ulama Consultative Council (MPU), a government entity that advises the government on Islamic affairs, demanded the school’s closure on the basis that it was “strange” and its teachings “false and misleading.”

Looks like a microcosm of Islam's current spread into the far more powerful non-Muslim nations don't you think?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #26 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 1:33pm

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:33am:

[quote author=Karnal link=1456110277/15#15 date=1456181962]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves Karnal. It is currently competing for 15th spot. Pakistan is in the 40s, with the 6th largest population. All these countries have to do to improve at the moment is not actively stifle their economies.

I beg to differ, FD. What those countries have to do is clean up their economies. In Indonesia, there's a huge popular campaign to stop corruption. Most areas of the Indonesian economy are sold off as monopolies to the generals' friends, largely foreign investors and ethnic Chinese cronies.

The other problem they need to resolve is wealth distribution. Indonesia and Pakistan have two of the highest wealth disparities in the world. This leads to all sorts of social problems. Jakarta's a city of shanty towns and condominiums. Either/or. Pakistan's fastest growing city and the world's latest IT zone, Karachi, is controlled by ethnic gangs.

It would be nice to think that all you have to do is leave the economy alone to sort this out, but doing this will only lead to more monopolies and wealth going into fewer hands. To create a society - and, dare is say, a functioning economy - you need money spread around. Without this, you get the sort of lawlessness, gangs and warlords inherent to Pakistan. Not only that, Karachi is the port city of Central Asia. Those gangs and warlords are able to get anything they like in and out of Pakistan and the region. They do too.

Forget the invisible hand of the marketplace, FD, Indonesia and Pakistan need to eradicate corruption and monopolies.

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« Last Edit: Feb 24^th, 2016 at 1:57pm by Mattyfisk »

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freediver

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #27 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 4:16pm

Quote:

Most areas of the Indonesian economy are sold off as monopolies to the generals' friends

Quote:

It would be nice to think that all you have to do is leave the economy alone to sort this out, but doing this will only lead to more monopolies and wealth going into fewer hands.

Quote:

Forget the invisible hand of the marketplace, FD, Indonesia and Pakistan need to eradicate corruption and monopolies.

Karnal, "selling monpolies off to the general's friends" requires the government to actively support those monopolies somehow - ie laws that effectively state (and enforce) that they are the only operator allowed. Very few of them would be natural monopolies. Removing those laws would be letting the invisible hand do it's thing.

If that is how Indonesia does things, what makes you think they are on their way to the top?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #28 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 5:27pm

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 4:16pm:

Quote:

Most areas of the Indonesian economy are sold off as monopolies to the generals' friends

Quote:

It would be nice to think that all you have to do is leave the economy alone to sort this out, but doing this will only lead to more monopolies and wealth going into fewer hands.

Quote:

Forget the invisible hand of the marketplace, FD, Indonesia and Pakistan need to eradicate corruption and monopolies.

Karnal, "selling monpolies off to the general's friends" requires the government to actively support those monopolies somehow - ie laws that effectively state (and enforce) that they are the only operator allowed. Very few of them would be natural monopolies. Removing those laws would be letting the invisible hand do it's thing.

If that is how Indonesia does things, what makes you think they are on their way to the top?

Actually, liberalizing an economy requires laws. We have the ACCC. We have laws on disclosure, cartels, insider trading, price fixing.and money laundering. These are all regulations.

Indonesia is on its way up because of its population and resources. This doesn’t mean it shares the spoils - unlike the rich oil states (Brunei, Saudi Arabia, etc). It’s quite possible for one billionaire to own an oil or gas pipeline and keep all that money to himself - particularly if he’s a foreigner. One thing about Indonesia - it’s very nice to foreigners who have money.

I’ve heard Pakistan is not so nice.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47352 At my desk.	Re: Science shows isam is violent Reply #29 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 6:19pm Quote: Actually, liberalizing an economy requires laws. We have the ACCC. We have laws on disclosure, cartels, insider trading, price fixing.and money laundering. These are all regulations. They are important, but they are a distant second to not imposing monopolies on the economy.
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