Australian Politics Forum - The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase

Dnarever

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #105 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:25pm

crocodile wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 3:36pm:

Unfortunately it's worse than that. Many are under the mistaken belief that PAYE employees pay tax on gross earnings. That is untrue. There are a host of allowable deductions available to those that have expenses incurred in the course of earning an income.

PAYE's have a tax free threshold, corporations do not. Despite many threads on the subject many can't accept that a tax on retained earnings is a tax on future labour productivity and therefore a tax on real wages growth. I'm dumbfounded.

Another topic is talking about rogue polls but around here a rogue crocodile may be more relevant.

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase Reply #106 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:36pm An increase in sales tax is by far the most reasonable way to flatten the tax structure and have a more spread out contribution to revenue contribution. It's much harder to avoid paying too. I'd support increase of sales tax.
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Bobby.

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #107 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:36pm

crocodile wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:38am:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 5:52am:

The national Govt. debt is $439 billion

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

from memory it was less than half that under Labor.

Apologise to the readers.

The debt clock is for the alarmists. They haven't quite figured out the difference between gross and net debt.

$439 billion

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase Reply #108 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:41pm Both increased under Rudd/Gillards wanton spending spree.
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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 61264 Here Gender:	Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase Reply #109 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:43pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:41pm: Both increased under Rudd/Gillards wanton spending spree. Yet you ignore that they both increased much more and much faster under Abbott and Turnbull's economic disaster.
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crocodile

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #110 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 7:29pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:25pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 3:36pm:

Unfortunately it's worse than that. Many are under the mistaken belief that PAYE employees pay tax on gross earnings. That is untrue. There are a host of allowable deductions available to those that have expenses incurred in the course of earning an income.

PAYE's have a tax free threshold, corporations do not. Despite many threads on the subject many can't accept that a tax on retained earnings is a tax on future labour productivity and therefore a tax on real wages growth. I'm dumbfounded.

Another topic is talking about rogue polls but around here a rogue crocodile may be more relevant.

Rogue - One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.
I've had worse but the content is true.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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crocodile

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #111 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 7:29pm

Bobby. wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:36pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:38am:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 5:52am:

The national Govt. debt is $439 billion

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

from memory it was less than half that under Labor.

Apologise to the readers.

The debt clock is for the alarmists. They haven't quite figured out the difference between gross and net debt.

$439 billion

Says it all really.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #112 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 7:36pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:43pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:41pm:

Both increased under Rudd/Gillards wanton spending spree.

Yet you ignore that they both increased much more and much faster under Abbott and Turnbull's economic disaster.

Yes - but that's a personal choice issue - something sacrosanct these days..... we should all be free to choose if we would rather be dragooned into serfdom or simply have it thrust on us... or if we choose to refuse to see realities in front of our noses.... that's our right...

What this country needs is for all the lazy layabouts to get off their arses, get an accounting qualification, and become hit-men for global companies that thrive in the darkest reaches of the global market, exploiting and devouring all they see for petty profit.. filthy lucre..... get a good job and get your mortgage going, as Joe said... sitting around on the dole when there is at least 25% of the workforce competing with you for a sh!t hauler's job is no excuse.....

Choice-mobile, son.. that's what it's all about.... now knuckle down... every sh1t hauler can become a billionaire with the right approach...... nothing to do with any 'old mates network'... nah... NAH... s'all lies... all lies...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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lee

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #113 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 9:50pm

'Paul Keating does not support increasing the GST to 15 per cent.

But making life difficult for Labor, he is open to a rise of 1 or 2 per cent, if it was earmarked to fund public hospitals.'

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-03/keating-quoted-by-both-sides-of-gst-debate...

Bugger. 50 cents each way.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #114 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 10:30pm

crocodile wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 7:29pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:25pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 3:36pm:

Unfortunately it's worse than that. Many are under the mistaken belief that PAYE employees pay tax on gross earnings. That is untrue. There are a host of allowable deductions available to those that have expenses incurred in the course of earning an income.

PAYE's have a tax free threshold, corporations do not. Despite many threads on the subject many can't accept that a tax on retained earnings is a tax on future labour productivity and therefore a tax on real wages growth. I'm dumbfounded.

Another topic is talking about rogue polls but around here a rogue crocodile may be more relevant.

Rogue - One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.
I've had worse but the content is true.

So we tax them on their net income at the same rates as PAYE earners? Good-oh!

Or is the logic that we simply not tax companies at all since to do so means there will be no future wages preserved, or at the very least much more will be??

Jayzuz - some of you educated economist types confuse yourselves....

Theory ain't everything......

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #115 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 10:31pm

lee wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 9:50pm:

'Paul Keating does not support increasing the GST to 15 per cent.

But making life difficult for Labor, he is open to a rise of 1 or 2 per cent, if it was earmarked to fund public hospitals.'

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-03/keating-quoted-by-both-sides-of-gst-debate...

Bugger. 50 cents each way.

That was the job of State Lotteries... but they sold that off... and it is no more..... now if funds 'entrepreneurs' who are also Party insiders...... funny that....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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mariacostel

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #116 - Feb 4^th, 2016 at 8:43am

crocodile wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 3:36pm:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 12:43pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 9:49pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 6:50pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 8:32pm:

stunspore wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:17pm:

What's the point of a compensation package - that's taking money out and giving it back again - even if it is a lesser amount.

Assuming it is to compensate to the less well off (more likely like most lib policies it will compensate the more well off to a larger degree), it shows that the govt recognises how blunt an instrument this is.

Now how about target other areas of taxation say like super?

That has been answered earlier in the thread. Even if revenue neutral, there are different deadweight losses associated with the assortment of taxation regimes.

Deadweight loss of GST = 8c per dollar, income tax = 21c per dollar, company tax = 40c per dollar.

Not particularly hard to see where the push is coming from. Stuff all to do with tax breaks for the rich.

Point is - it's shifting the burden of taxation onto those who have already paid income tax on their gross and away from companies that pay tax on net income..... this dramatically skews your figures.... companies no way pay 40% tax on gross earnings.... and they end up paying considerably less than 21% on that, and if they were subjected to the same income tax regime as Josephine Bloggotovski - they would be paying top marginal rate.......

I will allow that you are simply mis-stating your view..... a simple error.....

Grapples, It seems that you are confused. Where did you get the figures of 40% and 21% respectively. Have you mistaken the deadweight losses for tax obligations ? They are not the same thing. Get yourself a decent macro textbook or google "deadweight losses" or "marginal excess burden".

By the way, companies pay tax on gross profit, not gross earnings. A point that escapes many around here. I graciously forgive your simple error.

The difficulties so many have with the concept of tax on profit and not on revenue or earnings is astonishing. The reason so many here are unemployed or have menial jobs suddenly makes a great deal of sense.

Unfortunately it's worse than that. Many are under the mistaken belief that PAYE employees pay tax on gross earnings. That is untrue. There are a host of allowable deductions available to those that have expenses incurred in the course of earning an income.

PAYE's have a tax free threshold, corporations do not. Despite many threads on the subject many can't accept that a tax on retained earnings is a tax on future labour productivity and therefore a tax on real wages growth. I'm dumbfounded.

If you have a good education, a solid IQ and some life experience, this place can leave you gobsmacked on a regular basis. Frankly, the justly championed idea of a vote-for-all comes under threat by reading some of the idiocy and ignorance on display here. Imagine if there were an IQ threshold and an education minimum standard for having the vote. Would many here be still on the roll?

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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #117 - Feb 4^th, 2016 at 8:49am

mariacostel wrote on Feb 4^th, 2016 at 8:43am:

crocodile wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 3:36pm:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 12:43pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 9:49pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 6:50pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 8:32pm:

stunspore wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:17pm:

What's the point of a compensation package - that's taking money out and giving it back again - even if it is a lesser amount.

Assuming it is to compensate to the less well off (more likely like most lib policies it will compensate the more well off to a larger degree), it shows that the govt recognises how blunt an instrument this is.

Now how about target other areas of taxation say like super?

That has been answered earlier in the thread. Even if revenue neutral, there are different deadweight losses associated with the assortment of taxation regimes.

Deadweight loss of GST = 8c per dollar, income tax = 21c per dollar, company tax = 40c per dollar.

Not particularly hard to see where the push is coming from. Stuff all to do with tax breaks for the rich.

Point is - it's shifting the burden of taxation onto those who have already paid income tax on their gross and away from companies that pay tax on net income..... this dramatically skews your figures.... companies no way pay 40% tax on gross earnings.... and they end up paying considerably less than 21% on that, and if they were subjected to the same income tax regime as Josephine Bloggotovski - they would be paying top marginal rate.......

I will allow that you are simply mis-stating your view..... a simple error.....

Grapples, It seems that you are confused. Where did you get the figures of 40% and 21% respectively. Have you mistaken the deadweight losses for tax obligations ? They are not the same thing. Get yourself a decent macro textbook or google "deadweight losses" or "marginal excess burden".

By the way, companies pay tax on gross profit, not gross earnings. A point that escapes many around here. I graciously forgive your simple error.

The difficulties so many have with the concept of tax on profit and not on revenue or earnings is astonishing. The reason so many here are unemployed or have menial jobs suddenly makes a great deal of sense.

Unfortunately it's worse than that. Many are under the mistaken belief that PAYE employees pay tax on gross earnings. That is untrue. There are a host of allowable deductions available to those that have expenses incurred in the course of earning an income.

PAYE's have a tax free threshold, corporations do not. Despite many threads on the subject many can't accept that a tax on retained earnings is a tax on future labour productivity and therefore a tax on real wages growth. I'm dumbfounded.

If you have a good education, a solid IQ and some life experience, this place can leave you gobsmacked on a regular basis. Frankly, the justly championed idea of a vote-for-all comes under threat by reading some of the idiocy and ignorance on display here. Imagine if there were an IQ threshold and an education minimum standard for having the vote. Would many here be still on the roll?

I agree, as long as its applied politically equally.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19955 Gender:	Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase Reply #118 - Feb 4^th, 2016 at 10:46am Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 4^th, 2016 at 8:49am: I agree, as long as its applied politically equally. Why politically equally? Shouldn't it be applied equally, to all? If it is to be politically equal, do leftwingers (or rightwingers), get a lower passmark?
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Dnarever

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #119 - Feb 4^th, 2016 at 10:49am

lee wrote on Feb 4^th, 2016 at 10:46am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 4^th, 2016 at 8:49am:

I agree, as long as its applied politically equally.

Why politically equally? Shouldn't it be applied equally, to all? If it is to be politically equal, do leftwingers (or rightwingers), get a lower passmark?

Think he just means that the implementation should not be politically biased as is so often the case.

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