Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Baronvonrort

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #120 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:32pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 5:21pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:39pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:18pm:

Because it was more than enough to recognise you as a one-toothed hokey, probably married to your sister and wishing for the old days of slavery.

Hmmm.. Well I was born in Brunswick East, in Melbourne. I am a Muslim and I actually married a beautiful African American woman.. So I guess you're wrong about all of that... Way to go, judging me before even knowing me the slightest.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:18pm:

Our idea of freedom involves the ABSENCE of guns. Not how many people have been killed in mass-shootings in the last 19 years? NONE. Try telling that to the 900,000 people killed by guns in USA.

No mass shootings in Australia in the last 19 years? Let's examine that.

Wedderburn mass shooting in 2014
Hunt family murders in 2014
Hectorville Siege in 2011
Monash University mass shooting in 2002

I guess it wasn't none afterall!

As for the people killed by guns in the USA. I wonder how many of those were suicides? How many were in places where it is illegal to own a gun?

As for being free relying on the absence of guns. I mean that's a little silly don't you think.. Leaving guns only in the hands of criminals and the government, both of which will usurp your rights very quickly while you have no means to defend yourself?

But I can see why you wouldn't find guns useful in that situation. Australians don't know what rights are and see them as privileges so of course they won't fight to protect their rights and will bend over and take it in the tailpipe if the government wants to infringe on those rights.

That's why I love the US, we have protections against that.

Against what? 400 mass shootings this year alone? 35,000 gun deaths every year?

And of course you are a Muslim. A muslim with a gun-love. Might as well start your own uprising.

Mother Jones disagrees with your mass shooting claptrap they are anti gun, one of the mass shootings in your list was a cop accidently shooting a few innocent bystanders.

About 11,000 homicides, the majority of the suicides are white males over the age of 60.

Try google for Arab wedding gunfire, why is there never any mention of muslim gun culture.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #121 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:46pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:01pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:55pm:

Tell me, do you believe that the government should have a monopoly on violence?

Cheap slogans don't alter the facts: tighter gun control reduces gun deaths:

http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/4905120/data/chart3a-deaths-resulting-from-firearms-...

Cherry picking data along with cheap slogans is done by hoplophobes.

The majority of our gun deaths before 1996 were suicides with males over the age of 65 being the largest demographic, today hanging is the most common method of suicide, taking guns away was supposed to give them more time to think yet it makes no difference with suicidal people.

We bought back 640,000 shotguns and rimfires for around a billion dollars to reduce our firearm homicides by 15-30 a year.
Quote:

Firearm homicides-
1993- 64
1994- 76
1995- 67
1996- 104 ,Pt Arthur resulted in strict gun laws.
1997- 79
1998- 57
1999- 50
2000- 57
2001- 47

aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/tandi_pdf/tandi269.pdf

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #122 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:00pm

Quote:

All you do by banning firearms is prevent people who have no inclination to break the law from owning them, criminals don't care and will stay armed, just like they are in Australia.

Crap, banning guns pushes up the price criminals have to pay - both in dollars and penalties if they are caught with them. Most criminals are junkies who would sell their mother for a fix. That's why most holdups in Australia are done with other far less lethal weapons, and why so few Australians die in armed holdups.

But hey, let's not let the facts or common sense get in the way of the endless stream of mindless NRA spin that American gun nuts like to regurgitate on here. After all, owning a gun is what liberty means right? And 'respecting liberty' means parroting NRA propaganda.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #123 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 4:46am

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:00pm:

Crap, banning guns pushes up the price criminals have to pay - both in dollars and penalties if they are caught with them. Most criminals are junkies who would sell their mother for a fix. That's why most holdups in Australia are done with other far less lethal weapons, and why so few Australians die in armed holdups.

But hey, let's not let the facts or common sense get in the way of the endless stream of mindless NRA spin that American gun nuts like to regurgitate on here. After all, owning a gun is what liberty means right? And 'respecting liberty' means parroting NRA propaganda.

Banning guns or any weapon means that criminals have the upper hand and know that you, as a law abiding citizen won't have the means to defend yourself whilst they can carry a knife, a screw driver or even a gun and victimize you with it. They can also gang up on you and attack you like that.

Firearms are the surest means of self defence for men and women, particularly those who are on the losing side of the disparity of force.

Instead, the Australian government wants your daughters, sisters, mothers and spouses to use their keys to defend themselves against a rapist..

Forget that, my wife carries her gun and knows how to use it.

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #124 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:08am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:29pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:25pm:

Oh yeah... a virtually lawless MExico is SUCH a great example. You could have instead compared Australia which has NEVER had a school shooting. The NRA of course claims we have had quite a number!

I'm sorry to hear that the facts get in the way of your narrative. How unfortunate for you.

Actually, I might point out that Australia had a mass shooting at a school.. Monash University in fact.

Care to give some details on that mythical event?

No, of course not.

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #125 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:09am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:36pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:27pm:

Got any kids? Better get ready to bury one of them. People like you tend to either shoot them yourself by accident or let them do it to you. And then there is the occasional child that will short the parent dead as well.

Know how often that happens here? NEVER.

A lot of children in the US have actually defended their homes from home invasions because firearms were more easily accessible. I guess you think that those children should have been unable to defend themselves and been raped and murdered instead, right?

I agree that children should not have too easy access to firearms, but if your child is responsible and trained in the safe use of the gun then I'd leave the gun out for them.

Most accidental shootings that you refer to occur because the parents are irresponsible and leave the firearms around WITHOUT first having properly taught their children firearm safety. So the child sees a mysterious aura around the firearms and wants to play with it.

Take the mystery away from it, and raise your children correctly and they won't be a problem.

I'm going to call the highlighted bit a COMPLETE LIE. Support it from somewhere other than the NRA website or weloveguns.com

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #126 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:12am

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:32pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 5:21pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:39pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:18pm:

Because it was more than enough to recognise you as a one-toothed hokey, probably married to your sister and wishing for the old days of slavery.

Hmmm.. Well I was born in Brunswick East, in Melbourne. I am a Muslim and I actually married a beautiful African American woman.. So I guess you're wrong about all of that... Way to go, judging me before even knowing me the slightest.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:18pm:

Our idea of freedom involves the ABSENCE of guns. Not how many people have been killed in mass-shootings in the last 19 years? NONE. Try telling that to the 900,000 people killed by guns in USA.

No mass shootings in Australia in the last 19 years? Let's examine that.

Wedderburn mass shooting in 2014
Hunt family murders in 2014
Hectorville Siege in 2011
Monash University mass shooting in 2002

I guess it wasn't none afterall!

As for the people killed by guns in the USA. I wonder how many of those were suicides? How many were in places where it is illegal to own a gun?

As for being free relying on the absence of guns. I mean that's a little silly don't you think.. Leaving guns only in the hands of criminals and the government, both of which will usurp your rights very quickly while you have no means to defend yourself?

But I can see why you wouldn't find guns useful in that situation. Australians don't know what rights are and see them as privileges so of course they won't fight to protect their rights and will bend over and take it in the tailpipe if the government wants to infringe on those rights.

That's why I love the US, we have protections against that.

Against what? 400 mass shootings this year alone? 35,000 gun deaths every year?

And of course you are a Muslim. A muslim with a gun-love. Might as well start your own uprising.

Mother Jones disagrees with your mass shooting claptrap they are anti gun, one of the mass shootings in your list was a cop accidently shooting a few innocent bystanders.

About 11,000 homicides, the majority of the suicides are white males over the age of 60.

Try google for Arab wedding gunfire, why is there never any mention of muslim gun culture.

So it is 399 mass shootings... How does that change ANYTHING?

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Bias_2012

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #127 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:15am

Guns aren't the only weapon for self defense Lafeyette, guns are only one convenience to do the job. At issue, is the right to protect one's self by whatever means and whether it will stand up in court if it actually goes to court

So, does the US afford more generous laws for individual self defense than Australia does, forget guns, which nation gives more leeway in court for the guy doing the self defending ? ... That would be the real question I'd say, if you're talking about liberty

I doubt it would be Australia, but we really need to see the laws regarding self defense from both nations. Again, I'm talking about self defense, not about guns

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #128 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:16am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 4:46am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:00pm:

Crap, banning guns pushes up the price criminals have to pay - both in dollars and penalties if they are caught with them. Most criminals are junkies who would sell their mother for a fix. That's why most holdups in Australia are done with other far less lethal weapons, and why so few Australians die in armed holdups.

But hey, let's not let the facts or common sense get in the way of the endless stream of mindless NRA spin that American gun nuts like to regurgitate on here. After all, owning a gun is what liberty means right? And 'respecting liberty' means parroting NRA propaganda.

Banning guns or any weapon means that criminals have the upper hand and know that you, as a law abiding citizen won't have the means to defend yourself whilst they can carry a knife, a screw driver or even a gun and victimize you with it. They can also gang up on you and attack you like that.

Firearms are the surest means of self defence for men and women, particularly those who are on the losing side of the disparity of force.

Instead, the Australian government wants your daughters, sisters, mothers and spouses to use their keys to defend themselves against a rapist..

Forget that, my wife carries her gun and knows how to use it.

And in the USA, criminals that use guns have to use powerful automatic weapons so they can attack gun owning crazies. You've never heard of the concept of armed escalation? Where does it end? Why don't you carry an RPG in your car just in case you are attacked by... someone with an RPG?

Your argument is literally insane.

Here in Australia there will be family fights over Christmas. A few will escalate into fist fights. In the USA however they will be gun fights. Here there will be the occasional broken nose and jaw. IN USA there will be coffins.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #129 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:24am

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:12am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:32pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 5:21pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:39pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:18pm:

Because it was more than enough to recognise you as a one-toothed hokey, probably married to your sister and wishing for the old days of slavery.

Hmmm.. Well I was born in Brunswick East, in Melbourne. I am a Muslim and I actually married a beautiful African American woman.. So I guess you're wrong about all of that... Way to go, judging me before even knowing me the slightest.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:18pm:

Our idea of freedom involves the ABSENCE of guns. Not how many people have been killed in mass-shootings in the last 19 years? NONE. Try telling that to the 900,000 people killed by guns in USA.

No mass shootings in Australia in the last 19 years? Let's examine that.

Wedderburn mass shooting in 2014
Hunt family murders in 2014
Hectorville Siege in 2011
Monash University mass shooting in 2002

I guess it wasn't none afterall!

As for the people killed by guns in the USA. I wonder how many of those were suicides? How many were in places where it is illegal to own a gun?

As for being free relying on the absence of guns. I mean that's a little silly don't you think.. Leaving guns only in the hands of criminals and the government, both of which will usurp your rights very quickly while you have no means to defend yourself?

But I can see why you wouldn't find guns useful in that situation. Australians don't know what rights are and see them as privileges so of course they won't fight to protect their rights and will bend over and take it in the tailpipe if the government wants to infringe on those rights.

That's why I love the US, we have protections against that.

Against what? 400 mass shootings this year alone? 35,000 gun deaths every year?

And of course you are a Muslim. A muslim with a gun-love. Might as well start your own uprising.

Mother Jones disagrees with your mass shooting claptrap they are anti gun, one of the mass shootings in your list was a cop accidently shooting a few innocent bystanders.

About 11,000 homicides, the majority of the suicides are white males over the age of 60.

Try google for Arab wedding gunfire, why is there never any mention of muslim gun culture.

So it is 399 mass shootings... How does that change ANYTHING?

Mother Jones puts mass shootings at 73 in the last 3 decades ,they disagree with the lies you present.
motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

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Baronvonrort

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #130 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:28am

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:16am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 4:46am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:00pm:

Crap, banning guns pushes up the price criminals have to pay - both in dollars and penalties if they are caught with them. Most criminals are junkies who would sell their mother for a fix. That's why most holdups in Australia are done with other far less lethal weapons, and why so few Australians die in armed holdups.

But hey, let's not let the facts or common sense get in the way of the endless stream of mindless NRA spin that American gun nuts like to regurgitate on here. After all, owning a gun is what liberty means right? And 'respecting liberty' means parroting NRA propaganda.

Banning guns or any weapon means that criminals have the upper hand and know that you, as a law abiding citizen won't have the means to defend yourself whilst they can carry a knife, a screw driver or even a gun and victimize you with it. They can also gang up on you and attack you like that.

Firearms are the surest means of self defence for men and women, particularly those who are on the losing side of the disparity of force.

Instead, the Australian government wants your daughters, sisters, mothers and spouses to use their keys to defend themselves against a rapist..

Forget that, my wife carries her gun and knows how to use it.

And in the USA, criminals that use guns have to use powerful automatic weapons so they can attack gun owning crazies.

Here in Australia there will be family fights over Christmas. A few will escalate into fist fights. In the USA however they will be gun fights. Here there will be the occasional broken nose and jaw. IN USA there will be coffins.

The criminals don't have automatic firearms in the USA, Automatic firearms have been regulated since Al Capone's day it's a closed registry.

FBI stats for 2014 show more people are killed with fists and feet compared to rifles which include so called assault rifles.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #131 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:30am

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:00pm:

Quote:

All you do by banning firearms is prevent people who have no inclination to break the law from owning them, criminals don't care and will stay armed, just like they are in Australia.

Crap, banning guns pushes up the price criminals have to pay - both in dollars and penalties if they are caught with them. Most criminals are junkies who would sell their mother for a fix. That's why most holdups in Australia are done with other far less lethal weapons, and why so few Australians die in armed holdups.

Before our 1996 gun laws we had around 60-70 firearm homicides a year, guns were never really a problem here compared to the USA.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #132 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:44am

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:16am:

And in the USA, criminals that use guns have to use powerful automatic weapons so they can attack gun owning crazies. You've never heard of the concept of armed escalation? Where does it end? Why don't you carry an RPG in your car just in case you are attacked by... someone with an RPG?

Your argument is literally insane.

Here in Australia there will be family fights over Christmas. A few will escalate into fist fights. In the USA however they will be gun fights. Here there will be the occasional broken nose and jaw. IN USA there will be coffins.

So many Americans are armed here. Many even carry a firearm on them yet very few ever use their firearms. Criminals are less likely to victimize you when they know you could possibly be armed because they aren't stupid. It's just not worth the risk for most.

Very few criminals here are armed with automatic firearms also.

Australia has a massive problem with alcoholism, that isn't the fault of firearms. It is a cultural issue.

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #133 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:27am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 4:46am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:00pm:

Crap, banning guns pushes up the price criminals have to pay - both in dollars and penalties if they are caught with them. Most criminals are junkies who would sell their mother for a fix. That's why most holdups in Australia are done with other far less lethal weapons, and why so few Australians die in armed holdups.

But hey, let's not let the facts or common sense get in the way of the endless stream of mindless NRA spin that American gun nuts like to regurgitate on here. After all, owning a gun is what liberty means right? And 'respecting liberty' means parroting NRA propaganda.

Banning guns or any weapon means that criminals have the upper hand and know that you, as a law abiding citizen won't have the means to defend yourself whilst they can carry a knife, a screw driver or even a gun and victimize you with it. They can also gang up on you and attack you like that.

Firearms are the surest means of self defence for men and women, particularly those who are on the losing side of the disparity of force.

Instead, the Australian government wants your daughters, sisters, mothers and spouses to use their keys to defend themselves against a rapist..

Forget that, my wife carries her gun and knows how to use it.

Yes Lafayette, we get this idiotic propaganda rammed down our throat by American NRA ideologues on a regular basis. Though it is refreshing to come across a Muslim gun nut who works in counter terrorism....

The point you appear to miss is that contrary to what you dribbled (ie, "criminals don't care and will stay armed") our gun laws do actually disarm criminals.

Can you acknowledge this, or are you only programmed to parrot a slightly different version of the propaganda? I don't think I have ever succeeded in getting a gun nut to acknowledge this point.

Also, you never explained how you define liberty or what you mean by Americans respecting liberty. Does liberty mean the right to bear arms?

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #134 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:49am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:27am:

Yes Lafayette, we get this idiotic propaganda rammed down our throat by American NRA ideologues on a regular basis. Though it is refreshing to come across a Muslim gun nut who works in counter terrorism....

The point you appear to miss is that contrary to what you dribbled (ie, "criminals don't care and will stay armed") our gun laws do actually disarm criminals.

Can you acknowledge this, or are you only programmed to parrot a slightly different version of the propaganda? I don't think I have ever succeeded in getting a gun nut to acknowledge this point.

Also, you never explained how you define liberty or what you mean by Americans respecting liberty. Does liberty mean the right to bear arms?

Australia is its own continent, it has strict border controls yet illegal firearms still do get into the country.

Let me put it this way, prisons, where everything is controlled, still have illegal drugs, weapons and electonics coming into them despite the level of control. So how much control do you think you'll need to put on a society to stop guns from coming into the country and are you willing to live in a country that infringes on your freedom that much?

But let's actually assume that you could magically prevent every person in the country from having a firearm. Will that make society safer? Or less safe? Because what I see occurring is criminals not only using other weapons that are available, but also using their size and numbers to victimize people.

So what are you going to tell a 5ft 50kg woman to do when she is going to be raped by a guy that's 6'2 100kg and full of muscle? To use her keys? Give me a break.. You hope to deny innocent people the means to be able to defend their lives.

As for how firearms help to protect liberty, they act as a counterbalance to be power of government. Should the government decide to infringe on the people's rights, the people will be able to defend themselves.

But I don't suspect an Australian would be able to understand that because generally Australians don't know anything about rights. They treat them all like privileges and are not prepared to die to protect their rights.

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