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Can you support atrocities and human rights? (Read 41384 times)
freediver
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #210 - Sep 2nd, 2015 at 7:44pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 1st, 2015 at 11:35pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2015 at 9:19pm:
So you expect us to accept your sincerity without question when you claim to be the standard bearer for morals you refuse to identify?


I dont expect anything. Nonetheless my morals have been clearly identified.


Where did you identify them? Can you give a link? This little delusion of you being the standard bearer for western liberal morals is news to me, and I expect everyone else.

Would you say that what we see here is typical of Muslims who claim to share our values, or who try to create the impression that they do?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #211 - Sep 2nd, 2015 at 8:22pm
 
You really do seem to take offense to a muslim believing in western values.

Poor FD, this is news to him. Apparently he hasn't taken any notice of anything I've said in my 4 years here.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #212 - Sep 2nd, 2015 at 9:24pm
 
No offence. Bewilderment. Link please.

Or you could just say what these morals are that you have suddenly decided to be the standard bearer for.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #213 - Sep 2nd, 2015 at 10:49pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 2nd, 2015 at 7:44pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 1st, 2015 at 11:35pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2015 at 9:19pm:
So you expect us to accept your sincerity without question when you claim to be the standard bearer for morals you refuse to identify?


I dont expect anything. Nonetheless my morals have been clearly identified.


Where did you identify them? Can you give a link? This little delusion of you being the standard bearer for western liberal morals is news to me, and I expect everyone else.

Would you say that what we see here is typical of Muslims who claim to share our values, or who try to create the impression that they do?


Which values of ours do they claim to share, FD? I keep asking, but you won’t say.

Are you a Muslim?
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #214 - Sep 2nd, 2015 at 10:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 2nd, 2015 at 9:24pm:
No offence. Bewilderment. Link please.

Or you could just say what these morals are that you have suddenly decided to be the standard bearer for.


I’ll ask again. What are the morals you don’t want G to share with us?

Will you tell us now, FD?

We’re curious.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #215 - Sep 3rd, 2015 at 7:41am
 
FD is certainly honing in on the phrase "standard bearer". Presumably he sees it as an insult. Its not a term I would use to describe myself. "Believer in" would be more appropriate.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #216 - Sep 3rd, 2015 at 4:57pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3rd, 2015 at 7:41am:
FD is certainly honing in on the phrase "standard bearer". Presumably he sees it as an insult. Its not a term I would use to describe myself. "Believer in" would be more appropriate.


You're right, I should have used that.

FD, do you see yourself as the standard bearer of modern Western liberal values?

You haven't said.
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freediver
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #217 - Sep 4th, 2015 at 10:05pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3rd, 2015 at 7:41am:
FD is certainly honing in on the phrase "standard bearer". Presumably he sees it as an insult. Its not a term I would use to describe myself. "Believer in" would be more appropriate.


Morals is the term I am asking you about Gandalf. What are they?

Next time you are having your little fantasy about being the standard bearer for western liberal morals, do us all a favour and look up at the flag you are waving and tell us what is written on it. It will probably be something like "Islam is peace". Or maybe "da west side is da best side".
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #218 - Sep 4th, 2015 at 10:44pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 4th, 2015 at 10:05pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3rd, 2015 at 7:41am:
FD is certainly honing in on the phrase "standard bearer". Presumably he sees it as an insult. Its not a term I would use to describe myself. "Believer in" would be more appropriate.


Morals is the term I am asking you about Gandalf. What are they?.


That’s what I asked you, FD. Why don’t you want to answer?
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #219 - Sep 4th, 2015 at 10:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 4th, 2015 at 10:05pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3rd, 2015 at 7:41am:
FD is certainly honing in on the phrase "standard bearer". Presumably he sees it as an insult. Its not a term I would use to describe myself. "Believer in" would be more appropriate.


Next time you are having your little fantasy about being the standard bearer for western liberal morals, do us all a favour and look up at the flag you are waving and tell us what is written on it. It will probably be something like "Islam is peace". Or maybe "da west side is da best side".


Sometimes a question is just a question, no?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #220 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 4:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 4th, 2015 at 10:05pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3rd, 2015 at 7:41am:
FD is certainly honing in on the phrase "standard bearer". Presumably he sees it as an insult. Its not a term I would use to describe myself. "Believer in" would be more appropriate.


Morals is the term I am asking you about Gandalf. What are they?

Next time you are having your little fantasy about being the standard bearer for western liberal morals, do us all a favour and look up at the flag you are waving and tell us what is written on it. It will probably be something like "Islam is peace". Or maybe "da west side is da best side".


"standard bearer" isn't the term I use to describe myself.

And whose flag waving? Not me. You're a pretty good candidate though FD - with all those stirring lectures about freeeedom over the years. Does something like having a "use it or lose it" Charlie Hebdo tribute on your home page make you a 'flag waver' for freeeedom do you think?

Would you describe yourself as a 'flag waver' or even 'standard bearer' of western values? Or is it a term that is strictly to be used sarcastically to mock people like me who dare criticise fake morals? Like I said, you clearly like to use it as an insult.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #221 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 8:29pm
 
Gandalf can you be the standard bearer for something if you don't know what it is?

Quote:
"standard bearer" isn't the term I use to describe myself.


Here you are introducing the term:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17th, 2015 at 2:45pm:
you're kinda missing the point moses - as is most of the contributors here. The question is not about your own justifications for this or that atrocity, the question is is it possible for someone to claim any given atrocity is justified - while at the same time being a standard bearer for western liberal human rights. Or to put it another way - can you accept the sincerity of someone who claims that their support for a given atrocity is not incompatible with their belief in modern ideas of human rights.


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 20th, 2015 at 7:46am:
Not really. Its not a matter of what you think about yourself, but if you accept the sincerity of others.

Do you accept my sincerity? Do you accept that I can believe Muhammad's actions were justified while at the same time I can believe I am a standard bearer for western liberal morals? I know at least 2 people here who flatly reject such a notion. Maybe 3. Soren seems a bit conflicted.


And here you confirming what you consider to be obvious - that you do apply this term to yourself.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 19th, 2015 at 6:34pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 19th, 2015 at 6:03pm:
Gandalf do you claim to be a standard bearer for modern liberal values?

I thought if I ignored you long enough you'd figure out the bleeding obvious for yourself. Apparently I was wrong. So to spell out the self-explanatory - yes, I do.


Gandalf I appreciate your backpedaling, but until we know what you are backpedaling from there isn't really much point, is there?

Quote:
Would you describe yourself as a 'flag waver' or even 'standard bearer' of western values?


No. I do recall you describing me as an extremist for supporting freedom of speech on the holocaust denial issue. Are you now a standard bearer for that extremism?

Quote:
Or is it a term that is strictly to be used sarcastically to mock people like me who dare criticise fake morals?


It is your term Gandalf. I am not mocking it. I am asking you what it means. What I mock is your claim to be the standard bearer for something you cannot describe.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #222 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 9:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 5th, 2015 at 8:29pm:
Quote:
Would you describe yourself as a 'flag waver' or even 'standard bearer' of western values?


No. I do recall you describing me as an extremist for supporting freedom of speech on the holocaust denial issue. Are you now a standard bearer for that extremism?


Answer the question. please. Are you, or have you ever been, a standard bearer of wishy-washy Western morals?
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #223 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 8:05am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 5th, 2015 at 8:29pm:
No. I do recall you describing me as an extremist for supporting freedom of speech on the holocaust denial issue. Are you now a standard bearer for that extremism?


As usual you recall wrong.

I am curious though what would qualify as a standard bearer of freedom in your mind - if starting an entire online forum in response to perceived lack of freedom, constantly lecturing us about freedom in terms of 'use it or lose it'  and proudly standing in "solidarity" with Charlie Hebdo doesn't make you one.

FD I think your confusion here stems from me and you having completely different understandings of what being a "standard bearer" actually means.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #224 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 9:06am
 
Quote:
I am curious though what would qualify as a standard bearer of freedom in your mind - if starting an entire online forum in response to perceived lack of freedom, constantly lecturing us about freedom in terms of 'use it or lose it'  and proudly standing in "solidarity" with Charlie Hebdo doesn't make you one.


I am not going to complain too loudly if you do. My take on it is this - I support liberty, democracy and humanity. I believe I share this in common with most people around the world. I believe most people who live in stable democracies take these things for granted rather than actively supporting them and I would put myself in that basket until recently. When I started this site I was getting kicked off the fishing forums. While the intent was definitely anti-freedom, the practice was not, and I often find myself explaining this concept to people here. Being able to start my own website because I was not happy with the conduct of other site owners is a demonstration of the freedom of speech I already had. It was a protest in support of marine parks, carbon taxes etc, not a protest in support of freedom, and it did not occur to me to turn it into one. Even my electoral reform articles are not intended to promote democracy. It was also not that long ago that you conceded to me that there was nothing you are not allowed to say in Australia. We were both unaware of the holocaust denial laws. I would consider it arrogant to apply that label to myself.

Quote:
FD I think your confusion here stems from me and you having completely different understandings of what being a "standard bearer" actually means.


Lets start with western liberal morals. What do you mean by that? So far my assumption is that you made it all up on the spot and it is meaningless waffle, made all the more ironic by your demands that we appreciate your sincerity and your rejection of my debating style for getting too detailed. I have no idea why you think I am getting hung up on the meaning of standard bearer. It is your lack of meaning I have been asking about.
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