Australian Politics Forum - GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law

Pho Huc

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #15 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:00pm

Panther wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 3:28pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 2:24pm:

I guess its a shame that America doesn't have a gun control scheme, otherwise the perpetrator(with a long history of violent offences) may not have been able to get a gun, and shoot his whole family.

I will answer this simply by quoting an answer I read a while ago.

No laws will ever prevent a criminal from obtaining a gun, or any other weapon for that matter, nor will any law ever stop that individual from committing any criminal act, if that individual is intent on committing the act.

If that Texas murderer had hacked those children to death with a machete, a knife, a hammer, a chain, a baseball bat, a cricket bat, or a chainsaw would the crime have been any less heinous to the anti-gun mob? Would they be out to stop people from owning machetes, knifes, hammers, chains, baseball bats, cricket bats, or chainsaws with the same fervor?

How about petrol & matches. People have been doused & lit afire en masse......haven't they?

I've said it before, & will say it again, it isn't the tool of destruction that should inspire our lawmakers, it's the sick criminals that use them that need their undivided attention.....

If the Texas murderer has used a weapon other than a gun I wouldn't have used it a reference.
Not all mass murder involve the use of a firearm, but the vast majority do.

Your not going to change human nature. Taken as a mass people demonstrate an ability to go full metal jacket at the drop of a hat for reasons incomprehensible to others. I accept that.

In regard to your statement that laws cannot prevent criminals access to guns I present Japan. Very tight gun laws. has a population of 120 million. has approx 5 gun related deaths each year.

By the logic of More guns = less crime you would expect japan to have high crime rates. It does not. Therfore the more guns=less crime is either totally incorrect or a massive over simplification.

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Pho Huc

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #16 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:03pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 3:44pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 2:24pm:

I guess its a shame that America doesn't have a gun control scheme, otherwise the perpetrator(with a long history of violent offences) may not have been able to get a gun, and shoot his whole family.

The USA prohibits convicted felons from owning guns.
That sounds like gun control schemes to me.

They have assault weapon bans and magazine limits in California,New York,Connecticut and Massachusetts.
In Qld a landowner can buy a Ruger SR762 yet an American in Ca,NY,Co and Ma cannot own one of these rifles.

So a convicted felon cannot purchase a gun privately from a gun show with no paperwork?

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Sir Eoin O Fada

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #17 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:04pm

|dev|null wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 2:16pm:

Laws don't stop crimes, they punish crimes.

Monis's crime doesn't fit the criteria of a "massacre". Only one person died from his hand and two died from the hands of the Police. Three isn't sufficient to justify it called a "massacre".

Keep grasping. It's amusing to watch. Cheesy

It was a potential massacre, it had all the ingredients and the gun laws did nothing to stop it.
Therefore they failed.
It's as simple as that, the antis keep saying that Australia is a safer place because of the gun laws; tell that to the law abiding folk in the Punchbowl-Bankstown area.

The only reason that Australia didn't have a massacre at the Lyndt Cafe is because of men with guns.

So keep grasping, it is indeed amus Wink

ing to watch.

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Panther

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #18 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:06pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 3:44pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 2:24pm:

I guess its a shame that America doesn't have a gun control scheme, otherwise the perpetrator(with a long history of violent offences) may not have been able to get a gun, and shoot his whole family.

The USA prohibits convicted felons from owning guns.
That sounds like gun control schemes to me.

They have assault weapon bans and magazine limits in California,New York,Connecticut and Massachusetts.
In Qld a landowner can buy a Ruger SR762 yet an American in Ca,NY,Co and Ma cannot own one of these rifles.

That's a shame. They are fine firearms. Wink

Why cant a law-abiding citizen living in a regional unit buy one?

How many Ruger SR762s have ever been used to take, or attempt to take a human life anywhere in Australia since it's introduction?

I personally don't know of any.

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« Last Edit: Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:13pm by Panther »

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Pho Huc

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #19 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:10pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 3:49pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 2:13pm:

OK so I'll post it here, less the reference to Obama.

There have been many claims that the Gun Laws have stopped any mass shootings in Australia and that therefore they are a success.

The Lyndt Cafe and Monis proved that they are a failure.
All the ingredients were there for a massacre.

Monis had a firearm - the laws didn't stop him from acquiring it.

Monis' firearm was prohibited by the gun laws - he still got it.
his firearm was illegally modified - the gun laws didn't stop the modification.

Monis didn't have a firearms licence - he didn't comply with the gun laws.

Monis took hostages - the gun laws didn't stop him.

Monis murdered one person - the gun laws didn't stop him.

Monis had it in his power to murder many more people - the gun laws didn't stop him, he was stopped by men with guns.

Anyone care to refute the above?

If our laws are so good why are they trying to change them to outlaw lever action shotguns using a terrorist with a pump action as justification for this ban?

If the Police find a shortened firearm in your safe while doing safe storage inspections they will seize it along with all your other guns and ammo, it's a serious offence to be in possession of a shortened firearm.

The laws did not make it more difficult for Monis to get this firearm that was prohibited in 1996, the 2 Uzi's found in the last 2 months show criminals can get what they want in Australia.

I have no idea why the are outlawing lever action shot guns. I call knee jerk policy.
Its a stupid policy, you can legally own a pump action rifle in 45-70, and its easy to make crimped shot cartridges in this caliber. presto. totally legal pump action shot shooter.
But I digress.

Note that Monis was armed with one shotgun.
Many of the mass murders in the US have involved people armed with an assault rifle and a hand gun. Most of the people they kill are shot by the hand gun.

The fact that Monis could only get a shotgun, and not a assault rifle or handgun vindicates the law, not disproves it.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #20 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:15pm

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:10pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 3:49pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 2:13pm:

OK so I'll post it here, less the reference to Obama.

There have been many claims that the Gun Laws have stopped any mass shootings in Australia and that therefore they are a success.

The Lyndt Cafe and Monis proved that they are a failure.
All the ingredients were there for a massacre.

Monis had a firearm - the laws didn't stop him from acquiring it.

Monis' firearm was prohibited by the gun laws - he still got it.
his firearm was illegally modified - the gun laws didn't stop the modification.

Monis didn't have a firearms licence - he didn't comply with the gun laws.

Monis took hostages - the gun laws didn't stop him.

Monis murdered one person - the gun laws didn't stop him.

Monis had it in his power to murder many more people - the gun laws didn't stop him, he was stopped by men with guns.

Anyone care to refute the above?

If our laws are so good why are they trying to change them to outlaw lever action shotguns using a terrorist with a pump action as justification for this ban?

If the Police find a shortened firearm in your safe while doing safe storage inspections they will seize it along with all your other guns and ammo, it's a serious offence to be in possession of a shortened firearm.

The laws did not make it more difficult for Monis to get this firearm that was prohibited in 1996, the 2 Uzi's found in the last 2 months show criminals can get what they want in Australia.

I have no idea why the are outlawing lever action shot guns. I call knee jerk policy.
Its a stupid policy, you can legally own a pump action rifle in 45-70, and its easy to make crimped shot cartridges in this caliber. presto. totally legal pump action shot shooter.
But I digress.

Note that Monis was armed with one shotgun.
Many of the mass murders in the US have involved people armed with an assault rifle and a hand gun. Most of the people they kill are shot by the hand gun.

The fact that Monis could only get a shotgun, and not a assault rifle or handgun vindicates the law, not disproves it.

They still have to change the firearms act before they can outlaw the Adler, non detachable magazines are unlimited for capacity.
police.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/file/0011/209477/FACT_SHEET_Firearm_Magazines_Oc...

The worst mass murder in the USA the Virginia Tech offender used pistols.

There are around 300 rifle homicides in the USA every year, rifle homicides include so called assault rifles.
About 600 people are killed with fists and feet every year in the USA.
There are over 6000 pistol homicides every year in the USA.

Of course the hoplophobes don't like these so called assault rifles which don't kill as many people as fists or feet let alone pistols.

The homicide rate for blacks is 6-7 times higher than for whites, is the gangsta rap culture partly responsible for that?

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Pho Huc

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #21 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:16pm

Panther wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:06pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 3:44pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 2:24pm:

I guess its a shame that America doesn't have a gun control scheme, otherwise the perpetrator(with a long history of violent offences) may not have been able to get a gun, and shoot his whole family.

The USA prohibits convicted felons from owning guns.
That sounds like gun control schemes to me.

They have assault weapon bans and magazine limits in California,New York,Connecticut and Massachusetts.
In Qld a landowner can buy a Ruger SR762 yet an American in Ca,NY,Co and Ma cannot own one of these rifles.

That's a shame. They are fine firearms. Wink

How many Ruger SR762s have ever been used to take, or attempt to take a human life anywhere in Australia since it's introduction? I personally don't know of any.

None. They are very difficult to get licensing for. You need to be a professional shooter.
Most professional shooters run rem700's or equivalent bolt actions.
When your shooting professionally wasting ammo is wasting money.
Same reason most sniper rifles are bolt action.

Semi's are for people who cant hit the target the first time.

or war.

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Sir Eoin O Fada Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1346 New England, NSW Gender:	Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law Reply #22 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:16pm What's the Japanese record for Sarin gas murders? I'm sure no place else in the world can equal it. How's the suicide rate in Japan these days? Even when they had plenty of guns the knife or the rope were the favourite methods. Last year the average was 70 suicides per day in Japan.
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Panther

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #23 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:18pm

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:10pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 3:49pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 2:13pm:

OK so I'll post it here, less the reference to Obama.

There have been many claims that the Gun Laws have stopped any mass shootings in Australia and that therefore they are a success.

The Lyndt Cafe and Monis proved that they are a failure.
All the ingredients were there for a massacre.

Monis had a firearm - the laws didn't stop him from acquiring it.

Monis' firearm was prohibited by the gun laws - he still got it.
his firearm was illegally modified - the gun laws didn't stop the modification.

Monis didn't have a firearms licence - he didn't comply with the gun laws.

Monis took hostages - the gun laws didn't stop him.

Monis murdered one person - the gun laws didn't stop him.

Monis had it in his power to murder many more people - the gun laws didn't stop him, he was stopped by men with guns.

Anyone care to refute the above?

If our laws are so good why are they trying to change them to outlaw lever action shotguns using a terrorist with a pump action as justification for this ban?

If the Police find a shortened firearm in your safe while doing safe storage inspections they will seize it along with all your other guns and ammo, it's a serious offence to be in possession of a shortened firearm.

The laws did not make it more difficult for Monis to get this firearm that was prohibited in 1996, the 2 Uzi's found in the last 2 months show criminals can get what they want in Australia.

I have no idea why the are outlawing lever action shot guns. I call knee jerk policy.
Its a stupid policy, you can legally own a pump action rifle in 45-70, and its easy to make crimped shot cartridges in this caliber. presto. totally legal pump action shot shooter.
But I digress.

Note that Monis was armed with one shotgun.
Many of the mass murders in the US have involved people armed with an assault rifle and a hand gun. Most of the people they kill are shot by the hand gun.

The fact that Monis could only get a shotgun, and not a assault rifle or handgun vindicates the law, not disproves it.

Vindicates the law?

How?

If he did use that shotgun to kill 5 to 8 of his hostages would you be whistling the same tune, would the law be so smugly vindicated, or would you be demanding another law to replace the obviously inadequate law that failed? Roll Eyes

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Sir Eoin O Fada Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1346 New England, NSW Gender:	Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law Reply #24 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:19pm "Semi's are for people who cant hit the target the first time." and muzzle loaders are for people who can really shoot.
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Pho Huc

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #25 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:22pm

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:16pm:

What's the Japanese record for Sarin gas murders?

I'm sure no place else in the world can equal it.

How's the suicide rate in Japan these days?

Even when they had plenty of guns the knife or the rope were the favourite methods.

Last year the average was 70 suicides per day in Japan.

12 people died in the Sarin gas attack. Want me to list all the mass shooting in america with a death toll higher than that? irrelevant anyway.

Suicide rate is 50% higher than the US, currently ranked 17th in world. Relevance.

RELEVANCE ?

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Panther

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #26 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:23pm

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:19pm:

"Semi's are for people who cant hit the target the first time."

and muzzle loaders are for people who can really shoot. Grin

Where they are located means quite a lot. Some places semi's are so, so scary so ownership is banned, whereas in some places, like their MasterCard, some people wouldn't think of leaving home without one. Wink

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Baronvonrort

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #27 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:24pm

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:16pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:06pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 3:44pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 2:24pm:

I guess its a shame that America doesn't have a gun control scheme, otherwise the perpetrator(with a long history of violent offences) may not have been able to get a gun, and shoot his whole family.

The USA prohibits convicted felons from owning guns.
That sounds like gun control schemes to me.

They have assault weapon bans and magazine limits in California,New York,Connecticut and Massachusetts.
In Qld a landowner can buy a Ruger SR762 yet an American in Ca,NY,Co and Ma cannot own one of these rifles.

That's a shame. They are fine firearms. Wink

How many Ruger SR762s have ever been used to take, or attempt to take a human life anywhere in Australia since it's introduction? I personally don't know of any.

None. They are very difficult to get licensing for. You need to be a professional shooter.
Most professional shooters run rem700's or equivalent bolt actions.
When your shooting professionally wasting ammo is wasting money.
Same reason most sniper rifles are bolt action.

Semi's are for people who cant hit the target the first time.

or war.

In Qld you don't need to be a Pro shooter to have Cat D semi auto, they have reversed the ban on semi auto centrefire for landowners.
A Queenslander can own semi autos that are prohibited in Ca,NY,Co and Ma.

All the Pro Shooters I know have semi autos, if you are hiring a Pro shooter you should expect them to have Pro firearms.

The NSW FAAST aerial culling course says double tapping with a semi auto .308w is the most humane method of shooting feral pests.

Lots of semi auto 50 cal sniper rifles,Barret makes a few.

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Pho Huc

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #28 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:24pm

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

[quote author=Eugene link=1439250768/22#22 date=1439273776]What's the Japanese record for Sarin gas murders?

I'm sure no place else in the world can equal it.

How's the suicide rate in Japan these days?

Even when they had plenty of guns the knife or the rope were the favourite methods.

Last year the average was 70 suicides per day in Japan.

The worst Sarin attack in recent times was in Iraq, Monsieur Hussein, against the Kurds.

12 people died in the Japanese sarin gas attack. Want me to list all the mass shooting in america with a death toll higher than that? irrelevant anyway.

Suicide rate is 50% higher than the US, currently ranked 17th in world. Relevance.

RELEVANCE ?

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Baronvonrort

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Re: GUN LAWS -- Australian Law vs. American Law
Reply #29 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:26pm

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:24pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

[quote author=Eugene link=1439250768/22#22 date=1439273776]What's the Japanese record for Sarin gas murders?

I'm sure no place else in the world can equal it.

How's the suicide rate in Japan these days?

Even when they had plenty of guns the knife or the rope were the favourite methods.

Last year the average was 70 suicides per day in Japan.

The worst Sarin attack in recent times was in Iraq, Monsieur Hussein, against the Kurds.

12 people died in the Japanese sarin gas attack. Want me to list all the mass shooting in america with a death toll higher than that? irrelevant anyway.

Suicide rate is 50% higher than the US, currently ranked 17th in world. Relevance.

RELEVANCE ?

Japan has very few guns so why is the suicide rate so high, if we listen to the hoplophobes banning guns is all you need to take care of the suicide problem.

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