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The Myth of the 97% consensus claim (Read 39662 times)
ImSpartacus2
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #285 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 8:18pm
 
Soren wrote on Sep 5th, 2015 at 8:14pm:
Yes I agree, you are perfectly in step with the techniques of Nazi propaganda.  Your organ grinders learned their methods of deceit well 
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #286 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 1:17am
 
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mariacostel

You think consensus is part of the scientific method?? Experiment and trial is about BREAKING the consensus via new discoveries. My degrees may not have been in the sciences but my husband's are. Consensus is the argument of fools and charlatans.


Could we have a wannabee organ grinder here, on training wheels of course?

Degrees suggest a very good understanding of English. Suggests use of words for which the meaning is known, words like consensus and charlatan for instance.

Charlatan - a person claiming expertise he / she does not have.

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I would suggest that you wont debate the science because you don't even understand the meaning of the term. You get all excited by consensus and pretend that means anything and yet, it doesn't. You are just being quite silly and demonstrating hysteria and hype over rational fact-based discussion.


Why should ImSpartacus2 debate the science. His honest response that he does not have the expertise to answer scientific questions about climate change demonstrates he is not a charlatan. What is your climate science expertise Maria? Are you claiming expertise on the back of your husband's degrees? By your own measure if you lack climate science expertise yet wish to debate climate science then that makes you a charlatan. What is the climate science expertise of the infallible denialists posting on this thread? You would have to concur by your own measure that they too are all charlatans if they have no climate science expertise. You scorn and mock climate scientists whilst freely admitting you lack their scientific knowledge. This is what makes extreme ideological fundamentalists like you so dangerous.

ImSpartacus2 defers to the experts in the field. Scientists that you know, because you state that you understand the meaning of the term science, will consider the natural influences on our climate. Climate scientists have been analysing the data for decades and the more data they gather the more it reinforces AGW. These scientists have been out in the field observing and collecting data. Some have died doing so. They have been harassed and vilified by people like you. Charlatans like you that willingly assault the scientific foundation of our civilisation because, like the creationists, it threatens your extremist world view. The know nothing grubs of the cult of infallible denialists have repeatedly shown a refusal to accept data that demonstrates the validity of the work of these scientists. There is no better example than the rejection of BEST. The Berkeley Earth Temperature project (BEST) received denialist funding and the endorsement of Anthony Watt. BEST was to analyze weather station data. The denialists had long complained the positioning of weather stations led to false readings of surface temperature and the world was not as warm as the readings indicated. The BEST project validated the warming and went on in further studies to conclude that almost the entire cause of the warming was Anthropogenic. Despite stating "I'm prepared to accept whatever result they produce, even if it proves my premise wrong," Watt and his fellow infallible denialists refused to accept BEST's findings. The only ones demonstrating hysteria and hype are charlatans like you that refuse to accept the science on the grounds that you know better than BEST.

There are two basic forms of consensus. One is where parties with opposing views come together to settle on a compromised view that is acceptable to all parties. This is a consensus reached through negotiation. The other is where there is overwhelming evidence supporting a particular view and it is this evidence that leads to a consensus forming around this view. It is this evidence based consensus that determines what becomes the prevailing view in scientific circles.

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Not that consensus means anything anyhow. 200 years ago, non-whites were considered by a majority to be sub-human. Consensus means very little since ignorance usually forms in packs....  Experiment and trial is about BREAKING the consensus via new discoveries.


The consensus was that all climate change occurred naturally. AGW science broke that consensus. The fact that denialists wish to hold onto the old consensus is further proof that like creationists, they reject any breakthrough science that threatens their world view. The AGW consensus was the judgement arrived at by climate scientists practising climate science. That means that at the forefront of that practical science would have been the natural causes of climate change. The evidence from that science supported AGW ahead of natural causes. That is why the AGW consensus superceded the natural occurrence consensus in the same way that the evolution consensus superceded the biblical consensus.

This assault on consensus by denialists is further evidence of their extremist ideology and a total disregard for science.

Quote:
..Experiment and trial is about BREAKING the consensus via new discoveries..


This is scientific drivel. The scientific method is not about breaking consensus views. New discoveries can reinforce existing consensus views.

Quote:
...Consensus means very little since ignorance usually forms in packs...


Consensus on evolution means very little!!! The only ignorant form here is a multiple degree extremist that is a perfect example of a total waste of an education.
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mariacostel
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #287 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 8:54am
 
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 5th, 2015 at 7:07pm:
mariacostel wrote on Sep 5th, 2015 at 6:00pm:
Soren wrote on Sep 5th, 2015 at 11:40am:


I have read some of it and it is startling. REAL scientists - including nobel laureates - are lining up to skewer Mann and the infamous Hockey Stick as fraudulent. Even Phil Jones of Climategate 'fame' calls Mann a pest. You should all read it - 100 of the worlds top scientists from the Left and the Right, pro-AGW and anti - and they all say the Hockey stick is garbage.

And you all fell for it!
Longy, you're a despicable liar as always.  The fact that you had to change your nick because you trashed your credibility for telling too many lies too often is proof of the depths you will sink to deceive people.  To pretend that this trashy book isn't driven by sheer ideology is amongst your worst lies.  Styne's book (Primarily an entertainment writer and critic who refers to himself as "a right-wing bastard") was written in conjuction with the Institute of Public Affairs, whose list of donors reads like the whos who of the fossil fuel industry including  ExxonMobil, WMC Resources, BHP Billiton, Caltex, Shell, and Esso.


Having actually read it (unlike you) it is not even written by Styne. it is a compilation of 100 actual real scientists giving their highly-educated opinion on Michael Mann and the Hockey Stick fraud. And he has 200 more to come. The comments are by and large scathing of him and his pseudoscience.

Now before you get all righteous and huffy, the scientists range from right-wing conservatives to hard-care left-wing marxists. it includes pro-warmists and anti-warmists. It even includes Prof Phil Jones of the CRU (Climategate) who despite his association with Mann describes him in most unflattering terms. One of the original co-authors of the Hockey Stick (Briffa) describes it as junk science.

These are your heroes.
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #288 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 9:13am
 
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 5th, 2015 at 7:38pm:
Taylors' Wines are wonderful Australian winemakers from the Clare Valley. This is the link to their website

http://www.taylorswines.com.au/blog/2015/03/16/will-climate-change-affect-the-wa...

I think they make some excellent wines and I just happened on their website today and found the following article (I only produced the first half here, follow the link for the rest) in which they speak, not as advocates of Climate Change but from first hand experience of climate change, which of course is vitally important to their industry. 

You see, although despicable charlatans like Soren and longy have sought to obfuscate and misinform for their fanatical ideological purposes, there are the honest people who in their daily lives see climate change first hand and speak of it, not as conjecture but as the reality that they have to contend with if their industry is to survive. What follows is the first part of their blog (highlights mine)

"Will Climate Change Affect the Way we Produce Wine?

Mon, 16 March 2015

Vintage 2015 is in full swing across Australia. At Taylors, our winemakers hailed the beginning of vintage in the first week of February, when the grape parameters were all in balance – the sugars, acidity, tannins and flavour compounds. And this season’s fruit is once again a beautiful expression of our Clare Valley terroir, and of seasonal variations. The date of harvest changes every year, but we haven’t had a traditional autumn harvest on the estate since 2009. And we’re not alone.

Across Australia winters are warming, growing seasons are earlier, and vintages are coming forward. This is more than an observation. Viticulturist Professor Snow Barlow says research over the past 50 years shows coastal wine regions have warmed between 0.7 and one degree, and inland regions as much as two degrees. Vines are temperature-driven, so when the mercury rises, fruit ripening is accelerated and harvest dates are earlier.


The impact of global warming on grape growing

Professor Barlow has been at the forefront of research on grape growing and the impact of climate change since the Kyoto negotiations in the 1990s, but as Max Allen points out in The Future Makers: Australian Wines for the 21st Century, it wasn’t until 2007 that many winemakers heeded the science. The drought was taking hold, squeezing life out of sunburnt vines, and in turn shrivelling hopes for the wine industry’s long-term future, as climate experts predicted that by 2050 warmer growing regions would be out of production. The advice was to prepare for global warming, use less water, fewer chemicals, and plant more trees. And many did.

How the wine industry is adapting to rising temperatures

Some have moved to higher ground or further south to grow their cool climate Chardonnay, Riesling, Sauvignon Blanc and Pinot Noir. Others have planted vineyards east-to-west and manipulated the canopy to protect berries from the scorching afternoon sun. And we’re seen new technologies and innovations in grape growing and winemaking that are helping producers prepare for climate variations and extreme heat.


Saltram wines in the Barossa are ripping out vines on the valley floor and replanting with more heat tolerant varieties like fiano. The harvest season is more compressed these days, less time between ripening of different varieties and between different regions like Barossa Valley floor, Hills Face and Eden Valley.

Apparently more vignerons are planting vineyards in Tasmania and French vignerons are planting vineyards in Britain, all driven by the effects of climate change.

AGW is here and now and hitting the man on the land.
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #289 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 10:32am
 
The Hockey stick graph is supported by eminent authority and has been verified by "... more than two dozen reconstructions suing various statistical methods..."

So Maria Costel reference a book that is paid for by polluters and people who profit from pollution and includes entries by people who have been paid to be critical. Maria Costel is just one of many stooges who have used abuse and lies to torment Michael Mann. Maria Costel has the appearance of a paid unprofessional stooge.

Mann has sued his principal critics for defamation and instead of defending their defamatory claims the defendants have tried to have the law suit dismissed which they have so far failed to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_E._Mann

Quote:
The 2006 North Report published by the United States National Academy of Sciences endorsed the MBH studies with a few reservations. The principal component analysis methodology had a small tendency to bias results so was not recommended, but it had little influence on the final reconstructions, and other methods produced similar results.[30][31] Mann has said his findings have been "independently verified by independent teams using alternative methods and alternative data sources."[32] More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, support the broad consensus shown in the original hockey stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #290 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 11:59am
 
Unforgiven wrote on Sep 6th, 2015 at 10:32am:
The Hockey stick graph is supported by eminent authority and has been verified by "... more than two dozen reconstructions suing various statistical methods..."

So Maria Costel reference a book that is paid for by polluters and people who profit from pollution and includes entries by people who have been paid to be critical. Maria Costel is just one of many stooges who have used abuse and lies to torment Michael Mann. Maria Costel has the appearance of a paid unprofessional stooge.

Mann has sued his principal critics for defamation and instead of defending their defamatory claims the defendants have tried to have the law suit dismissed which they have so far failed to do.

Quote:
The 2006 North Report published by the United States National Academy of Sciences endorsed the MBH studies with a few reservations. The principal component analysis methodology had a small tendency to bias results so was not recommended, but it had little influence on the final reconstructions, and other methods produced similar results.[30][31] Mann has said his findings have been "independently verified by independent teams using alternative methods and alternative data sources."[32] More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, support the broad consensus shown in the original hockey stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.



I think they ought to demand their money back. Its an amateurish attempt to spruik a professional denial miner. I'm not allowed to post links , yet. Have a good read of this unforgiven. It's hilarious how these denialists rehash each others manipulation of the facts. Put in a direct link if you agree.  

tonyhellerakastevengoddardisnotasociopath  /2015/08/16/as-the-world-burns-epidose-ii-curry-the-quote-miner
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mariacostel
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #291 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 12:45pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Sep 6th, 2015 at 10:32am:
The Hockey stick graph is supported by eminent authority and has been verified by "... more than two dozen reconstructions suing various statistical methods..."

So Maria Costel reference a book that is paid for by polluters and people who profit from pollution and includes entries by people who have been paid to be critical. Maria Costel is just one of many stooges who have used abuse and lies to torment Michael Mann. Maria Costel has the appearance of a paid unprofessional stooge.

Mann has sued his principal critics for defamation and instead of defending their defamatory claims the defendants have tried to have the law suit dismissed which they have so far failed to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_E._Mann

Quote:
The 2006 North Report published by the United States National Academy of Sciences endorsed the MBH studies with a few reservations. The principal component analysis methodology had a small tendency to bias results so was not recommended, but it had little influence on the final reconstructions, and other methods produced similar results.[30][31] Mann has said his findings have been "independently verified by independent teams using alternative methods and alternative data sources."[32] More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, support the broad consensus shown in the original hockey stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.


You are not telling the truth. The hockey stick reconstructions have been based on the same data and the same methods. It is therefore not surprising that the results were the same. However, reconstructions NOT based on the same data and using more reliable methods have found very different results including a Medieval Warm Period that is 1-3 degrees WARMER than currently.

Also, you have fallen for the con that the MBH report is endorsed by a lot of bodies. IN fact, when you read the details of their various reports you find that these bodies actually reject the ultimate findings.

And if you want further proof, the IPCC itself has dumped the hockey stcik and you will find it nowhere in any of their reports.
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mariacostel
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #292 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 12:47pm
 
Radical wrote on Sep 6th, 2015 at 11:59am:
Unforgiven wrote on Sep 6th, 2015 at 10:32am:
The Hockey stick graph is supported by eminent authority and has been verified by "... more than two dozen reconstructions suing various statistical methods..."

So Maria Costel reference a book that is paid for by polluters and people who profit from pollution and includes entries by people who have been paid to be critical. Maria Costel is just one of many stooges who have used abuse and lies to torment Michael Mann. Maria Costel has the appearance of a paid unprofessional stooge.

Mann has sued his principal critics for defamation and instead of defending their defamatory claims the defendants have tried to have the law suit dismissed which they have so far failed to do.

Quote:
The 2006 North Report published by the United States National Academy of Sciences endorsed the MBH studies with a few reservations. The principal component analysis methodology had a small tendency to bias results so was not recommended, but it had little influence on the final reconstructions, and other methods produced similar results.[30][31] Mann has said his findings have been "independently verified by independent teams using alternative methods and alternative data sources."[32] More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, support the broad consensus shown in the original hockey stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.



I think they ought to demand their money back. Its an amateurish attempt to spruik a professional denial miner. I'm not allowed to post links , yet. Have a good read of this unforgiven. It's hilarious how these denialists rehash each others manipulation of the facts. Put in a direct link if you agree.  

tonyhellerakastevengoddardisnotasociopath  /2015/08/16/as-the-world-burns-epidose-ii-curry-the-quote-miner



Did you know that the original Hockey stick 'reconstructed' the entire temperature record from 1000- 1421 from JUST ONE TREE?  And in the process eliminated the Medieval warm period which is proven historically and in fact, other reconstructions confirmed.
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mariacostel
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #293 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 1:14pm
 
The Clime Syndicate

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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #294 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 1:20pm
 
Empire of the stick
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #295 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 1:22pm
 
More blather and schtick from Maria Costel whose arguments are empty of reason and fact.
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #296 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 1:22pm
 
Lord of the Tree Rings
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mariacostel
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #297 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 1:23pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Sep 6th, 2015 at 1:22pm:
More blather and schtick from Maria Costel whose arguments are empty of reason and fact.


300 eminent scientists disagree with you.
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mariacostel
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #298 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 1:29pm
 
The Fall of the Stick

MICHAEL E MANN is the bristlecone pine of scientists. Just as removing the bristlecones makes his hockey stick collapse, so removing Mann from the climate conversation would make a lot of the drama and hysteria and sheer unpleasantness disappear.

For example, why do we have leaders of advanced, prosperous societies talking like gibbering madmen escaped from the padded cell, whether it’s President Obama promising to end the rise of the oceans or the Prince of Wales saying we only have 96 months left to save the planet. He started that countdown in 2009, by the way. The 96 months is up in July 2017. On the other hand, it gives us an extra 18 months on January 2016, which is the official final storewide-clearance date for Al Gore’s 2006 prediction of the end of the world.

This sort of thing was once reserved for amiable lunatics with sandwich boards passing out leaflets in the street. What made it suddenly respectable for princes and presidents?

Answer: The declaration by the IPCC that this is the hottest year of the hottest decade of the hottest century since hotness began. And who provided the underlying “science” for that? Mann.

Another question: Why is Big Climate so weirdly defensive? To the point where an entire sub-discipline of junk science has sprung up in which supposed “academics” publish papers purporting to show that 99.99999 per cent of all scientists agree with them338, and producing “studies” to prove that anyone minded to disagree is a conspiracy theorist who believes the moon landings were faked. 339 (In fact, two of the very few men who’ve set foot on the moon are, in Mann terms, climate deniers: Buzz Aldrin and Harrison Schmitt.)

Why are they doing this? Answer: They’re playing by Mann rules. Don’t address the argument, destroy the guy making it - he’s a “denier”, he’s in the pay of the Koch brothers. Clearly this Buzz Aldrin kook is just some wackjob who believes the moon landings were filmed in Nevada.

Those who think that the very real disputes within climate science should nevertheless be debated within civilized norms have argued that, in Dr Richard Betts’ words, “the whole climate conversation would be better off with the word ‘denier’ being dropped completely.” But no climatologist promotes this witless slur as zealously as Mann: He lends a gang insult the imprimatur of science, and his thuggish acolytes have enthusiastically embraced it. Because what they’re defending - the hockey stick - is indefensible, their best defense is a good offensiveness, remorseless and virulent.

Much has flowed from the decision to stick with the stick. You’ll recall Professor Richard Tol’s words a few pages ago:

Who does most damage to the climate movement? Michael Mann, Phil Jones, Jim Hansen, Peter Gleick, Al Gore, Rajendra Pachauri (not necessarily in that order).

James Hansen was the most influential climate-change promoter pre-Mann. In June 1988 his dramatic testimony to the US Senate was reported by the following day’s New York Times under the headline “Global Warming Has Begun”. Certainly, the global-warming movement had begun. Hansen pushed the boundaries between scientist and propagandist, but, unlike Mann, he did not push the science itself into outright propaganda. Peter Gleick is a climatologist who stole the identity of a director of the (skeptic) Heartland Institute and released several confidential documents plus a “strategy” paper that he forged outright. He remains a respected figure in his field, and he and Mann are mutual admirers, with Mann comparing Gleick favorably to whoever “hacked” into the CRU. In reality, the Climategate emails were almost certainly leaked by a disgusted CRU employee - and are not forged.
But put Hansen and Gleick aside. Everyone else on Professor Tol’s list of those who do “most damage to the climate movement” is a Mann promoter: Rajendra Pachauri was the head of the organization that made the hockey stick the most famous “science” graph of the 21st century; Al Gore is the climate crusader who made the stick the star of his Oscar-winning movie and the lodestar of a new school of cartoon science force-fed to a generation of western schoolchildren; Phil Jones is the older, respected scientist who put a distinguished institution in the service of hockey-stick science, colluded with Mann in obstructing legitimate requests for data, and would have been criminally prosecuted for breach of the Freedom of Information Act were it not for the statute of limitations.

In other words, take away Mann and the hockey stick, and a lot of the other bad stuff goes away, too. Embracing the stick corrupted the heart of climate science, from Nature to peer review to the CRU to the IPCC to government policy around the world. If scientists of integrity are not willing to, in Jonathan Jones’ phrase, “publicly denounce the hockey stick as obvious drivel”, they do need, in the interests of a fresh start for a very damaged brand, to acknowledge the damage it did. They owe it to their own integrity to repudiate the stick. In this section are some of the scientists who spoke up, without fear, very early.

Steyn, Mark (2015-09-01). "A Disgrace to the Profession" . Stockade Books. Kindle Edition.
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Jovial Monk
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Re: The Myth of the 97% consensus claim
Reply #299 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 2:15pm
 
And AGW is here and now, why try to deny it? Ideology? Christianity, only Gawd can change the climate? Fear of change?
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