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this is Greece's position (Read 18078 times)
bogarde73
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this is Greece's position
Jun 30th, 2015 at 7:53pm
 
You should not have lent Greece the money so we have no obligation to pay it back. If you try to kick us out we will sue you. We know our rights.
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Andrei.Hicks
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #1 - Jun 30th, 2015 at 8:00pm
 
bogarde73 wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 7:53pm:
You should not have lent Greece the money so we have no obligation to pay it back. If you try to kick us out we will sue you. We know our rights.


The Greek position is somewhat absurd.
I spend a lot of time in Holland - one of the countries which is funding this nonsense along with France and Germany - and they just cant grasp the behavior of the Greeks.

Basically Greece is saying we need the money from you to pay back the money the IMF loaned us.

If you don't give it to us - we will leave the Euro.

They do actually realise it is they who owe the money right?
They are the ones who borrowed it - how on earth can they be threatening to leave???

Thank God Mrs Thatcher kept us out of the Eurozone.

Note the EUR has tanked from 1.38 to the USD to about 1.09 in less than half a year.

The pound remains strong at 1.55 - where it was 6 months ago (and I just got 2.04 to the AUD this morning!!)
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Armchair_Politician
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #2 - Jul 1st, 2015 at 8:45am
 
This is the problem with Greece - their pension. They have a very low (by western standards) retirement age of around 55 if I remember right, so a huge proportion of their population is retired, leaving relatively few workers left to contribute to the pension via their taxes. Compounding this problem is the fact that the Greek pension is quite high - almost the same as a good mid-level wage. Attempts by a handful of Greek politicians to raise the retirement age were met with howls of protest, as were attempts to lower the pension. No way, said the retirees. So the politicians tried other, futile measures because the retirees are such an enormous bloc of voters they needed them to get re-elected. Greece also has quite a large public service, which adds to the pressure on government coffers. Greece's problems have nothing to do with the EU - it's almost entirely of their own making and I have little or no sympathy for them.
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #3 - Jul 1st, 2015 at 9:22am
 
Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 1st, 2015 at 8:45am:
This is the problem with Greece - their pension. They have a very low (by western standards) retirement age of around 55 if I remember right, so a huge proportion of their population is retired, leaving relatively few workers left to contribute to the pension via their taxes. Compounding this problem is the fact that the Greek pension is quite high - almost the same as a good mid-level wage. Attempts by a handful of Greek politicians to raise the retirement age were met with howls of protest, as were attempts to lower the pension. No way, said the retirees. So the politicians tried other, futile measures because the retirees are such an enormous bloc of voters they needed them to get re-elected. Greece also has quite a large public service, which adds to the pressure on government coffers. Greece's problems have nothing to do with the EU - it's almost entirely of their own making and I have little or no sympathy for them.


yes. It has been evolving for about a decade and is dragging down the EU.
Same as portugal, Italy and spain.

Cut them loose, discard them
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Ex Dame Pansi
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #4 - Jul 1st, 2015 at 9:27am
 

Other European nations are considering leaving the EU.

All debt should be forgiven, release them from the EURO, cut the ties.....it was a scam right from the get go.
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andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....
 
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athos
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #5 - Jul 1st, 2015 at 10:39am
 
EU is a political creation designed to be a new European, primarily Franco - German, Empire.
NATO, IMF, NGO etc are instruments for providing new colonial slaves.
What a beautiful combination of Western rationalism and Jewish pragmatism.
However it looks that time for new Empires is over.
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Do we need to be always politically correct.
In the world of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
 
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #6 - Jul 1st, 2015 at 10:40am
 
athos wrote on Jul 1st, 2015 at 10:39am:
EU is a political creation designed to be a new European, primarily Franco - German, Empire.
NATO, IMF, NGO etc are instruments for providing new colonial slaves.
What a beautiful combination of Western rationalism and Jewish pragmatism.
However it looks that time for new Empires is over.
providing new colonial slaves?? Undecided Undecided Undecided Undecided
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bogarde73
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #7 - Jul 1st, 2015 at 10:45am
 
This is interesting:

A sea of misunderstanding surrounds Europe
Daniel Woker  |
Lowy Interpreter

English is, fortunately, the global lingua franca. Thus, comments on current events made in English are the final arbiters for most of the world. This is mostly for the good but can misfire. Where the EU is concerned, the nabobs in London, Washington and elsewhere in Tony Abbott's Anglosphere don't get it, as shown by recent comments on events in Greece and on Germany's role in Europe.

No soccer match, tennis game or golf play-off would ever dare to go into the number of prolongations we are all exposed to by the interminable tragi-comedy of Greece vs Europe. At the time of writing, Greek banks are closed but the final outcome is still far from clear. We don't know if there will be a clear cut 'Grexit', the much discussed exit of Greece from the euro. What will certainly ensue, however, is a prolonged period of muddling through, with severe capital controls and budget policies.

Since the beginning of the prolonged negotiations between the present Greek Government and the 'troika' (the European Commission, European Central Bank and the IMF), there have been three main reasons why too much leniency for Greece (including a debt 'haircut') was impossible.

First was the fear of precedent. A European backdown on Greece would have been intolerable for other European countries that had already swallowed bitter budget medicine -- mainly Ireland, Portugal and Spain.

The second reason was the presence on the Greek side of a government coalition of populist, far-left and far-right parties such as are on the rise in practically every European country. Massive illegal immigration and violent extremism are severe enough problems for Europe. To hand an easy and undeserved victory to such a coalition would simply make those problems worse.

The third factor was the Tsirpas Government and how it used its newly gained power. A recent comment by Christine Lagarde, not normally a fiery orator, says it all: 'Let's have a discussion among adults.' What was unsaid but painfully obvious: '...and not with a bunch of vainglorious adolescents without neckties but full of ill-applied game theory and macho hot air.'

Europe, and particularly Germany, still prefers to keep Greece within the Eurozone, but Greece represents around 2 per cent of the economic weight of the eurozone, so Europe can live with Greece going back to the Drachma, and eventually to economic hell. The poor in Greece would be the main victims, not the country's rich and powerful. That includes the present government, which still does not see that the only way back to prosperity is deep structural and fiscal reforms.

Reports from two FT columnists -- one on the necessary death of the Euro, made obvious by the Greek drama; another on the ideological damage which the 'Grexit' will do to the very core of the EU concept and thus of the European soul -- are at the very least premature. Even a keen observer like Gideon Rachman, for all his experience, has got it fundamentally wrong for once.

The eurozone is not a monetary union such as we have seen before but an economic reaction to the fact that the EU some time ago become one large manufacturing and service-providing area made up of countless cross-border value chains. An area-wide currency provides for a level playing field for suppliers and assemblers regardless of national borders.

Contrary to what is often claimed, the political decision to create a single currency (and with it a common banking, regulatory and eventually fiscal union) followed economic reality rather than leading it. As a result, national sovereignty was transferred for the greater good of all. (This is of course anathema to nationalists all over the EU, yet the idea that the UK prefers to opt out of full European integration continues to baffle observers on the continent. After all, Britain without Europe is just an island adrift.)

Germany provides another example of this basic failure in Anglosphere understanding of what today's Europe is all about. A recent article by none other than former Fed chairman Ben Bernanke serves as a telling example. As a citizen of a federalist country, Bernanke should know better. He treats Germany's trade surplus as a national phenomenon, easily fixable by national decisions if there is political will to do so.

But German exports, very much including the products of its vaunted car industry, are an amalgamated product of European economic value chains involving goods and persons from various European countries, not all necessarily researching, planning, assembling and selling in the countries they were born in. The ensuing exports happen to be counted as German exports, mainly because trade statistics have not yet found a way to reflect this complex reality.

Consequently, Bernanke's specific propositions to remedy the German surplus fall short. Investment in public infrastructure in Germany will increase in any case, if only because the last generation of infrastructure, thrown up somewhat hastily after World War II, is coming to the end of its life. Spain has built excellent publi
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Know the enemies of a civil society by their public behaviour, by their fraudulent claim to be liberal-progressive, by their propensity to lie and, above all, by their attachment to authoritarianism.
 
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bogarde73
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #8 - Jul 1st, 2015 at 10:46am
 
Spain has built excellent public infrastructure over the last 20 years (albeit with too-cheap money and in parts excessively). This is a boon to anybody traveling or transporting goods there, and will allow allocation of funds elsewhere for decades.

In short, traditional national remedies in economics (and in areas such as immigration, education and research, and energy) simply cannot be applied in today's Europe. So much the better. As we all know (and this includes the wise wags from the Anglosphere), Europe can only master its big challenge with one economy and one currency. What is that big challenge? To remain fully in charge of its future in a world no longer centered on transatlantic relations but on  the Asia Pacific.
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Know the enemies of a civil society by their public behaviour, by their fraudulent claim to be liberal-progressive, by their propensity to lie and, above all, by their attachment to authoritarianism.
 
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cods
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #9 - Jul 1st, 2015 at 1:37pm
 
bogarde73 wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 7:53pm:
You should not have lent Greece the money so we have no obligation to pay it back. If you try to kick us out we will sue you. We know our rights.



they do have a point..bankruptcy says the same thing really.....

I mean what can they do about it????....the Germans.

the problem is I would think not too many will ever trust the Greeks again.....they are not prepared to pull their belts in to save their country or their pride...

they are just proving what many have always said..

never trust a Greek.....and I dont.
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #10 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 8:52am
 
Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 1st, 2015 at 9:27am:
Other European nations are considering leaving the EU.

All debt should be forgiven, release them from the EURO, cut the ties.....it was a scam right from the get go.


Greece's problems have ZERO to do with the EU. Don't you get that yet???
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #11 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 9:12am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 1st, 2015 at 9:22am:
Armchair_Politician wrote on Jul 1st, 2015 at 8:45am:
This is the problem with Greece - their pension. They have a very low (by western standards) retirement age of around 55 if I remember right, so a huge proportion of their population is retired, leaving relatively few workers left to contribute to the pension via their taxes. Compounding this problem is the fact that the Greek pension is quite high - almost the same as a good mid-level wage. Attempts by a handful of Greek politicians to raise the retirement age were met with howls of protest, as were attempts to lower the pension. No way, said the retirees. So the politicians tried other, futile measures because the retirees are such an enormous bloc of voters they needed them to get re-elected. Greece also has quite a large public service, which adds to the pressure on government coffers. Greece's problems have nothing to do with the EU - it's almost entirely of their own making and I have little or no sympathy for them.


yes. It has been evolving for about a decade and is dragging down the EU.
Same as portugal, Italy and spain.

Cut them loose and discard them.


Ah, but the EU doesn’t want to do that. Why?

Because these countries keep the value of the Euro down, which benefits French and German exports.

Cut them. Discard them.
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #12 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 9:20am
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 8:00pm:
bogarde73 wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 7:53pm:
You should not have lent Greece the money so we have no obligation to pay it back. If you try to kick us out we will sue you. We know our rights.


The Greek position is somewhat absurd.
I spend a lot of time in Holland - one of the countries which is funding this nonsense along with France and Germany - and they just cant grasp the behavior of the Greeks.

Basically Greece is saying we need the money from you to pay back the money the IMF loaned us.

If you don't give it to us - we will leave the Euro.

They do actually realise it is they who owe the money right?
They are the ones who borrowed it - how on earth can they be threatening to leave???

Thank God Mrs Thatcher kept us out of the Eurozone.

Note the EUR has tanked from 1.38 to the USD to about 1.09 in less than half a year.

The pound remains strong at 1.55 - where it was 6 months ago (and I just got 2.04 to the AUD this morning!!)


Ummm...you're not entirely right.

I take it that you too don't know much about Sthern European history.


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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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John Smith
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #13 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 9:41am
 
Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 2nd, 2015 at 7:42am:
You are totally gay John Smith.


if only you were a little younger, I might let you find out Grin Grin Grin
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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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Andrei.Hicks
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Re: this is Greece's position
Reply #14 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 10:11am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 2nd, 2015 at 9:20am:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 8:00pm:
bogarde73 wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 7:53pm:
You should not have lent Greece the money so we have no obligation to pay it back. If you try to kick us out we will sue you. We know our rights.


The Greek position is somewhat absurd.
I spend a lot of time in Holland - one of the countries which is funding this nonsense along with France and Germany - and they just cant grasp the behavior of the Greeks.

Basically Greece is saying we need the money from you to pay back the money the IMF loaned us.

If you don't give it to us - we will leave the Euro.

They do actually realise it is they who owe the money right?
They are the ones who borrowed it - how on earth can they be threatening to leave???

Thank God Mrs Thatcher kept us out of the Eurozone.

Note the EUR has tanked from 1.38 to the USD to about 1.09 in less than half a year.

The pound remains strong at 1.55 - where it was 6 months ago (and I just got 2.04 to the AUD this morning!!)


Ummm...you're not entirely right.
I take it that you too don't know much about Sthern European history.



Their economies are absolute basket cases.
Their culture is one of sitting in deck chairs and retiring at 55.
Then they wonder why they run out of money??

I look after EMEA now.
Of our franchise supply chain business you want to know the AR days outstanding (number of days our suppliers take to pay us) -

UK - 32 days
Germany - 15 days
Netherlands - 19 days

Italy - 389 days
Spain - 422 days
Greece - 643 days

Spot the basket case countries that need help....

I talk to the guy in Milan who picks me up. He has his own limo business. He said in Italy nobody pays anybody, it's all done on credit and it has never got better since 2008.

The countries are total messes and its left to us in northern
Europe - the people who actually work. To bail them out each time!!!
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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde
 
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