Australian Politics Forum - Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong

Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #60 - Jul 6^th, 2015 at 5:31pm

Soren wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 9:52pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 9:03pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 7:06pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 6:40pm:

Nietzsche isn't all bad. His criticisms of equality are spot on.

Not a thing you can say if you accept what is nothing more than a linguistic paradox that he was taken in by: there is no right or wrong.

He also said that there are no such things as facts, only interpretations, which is the same sort of elegant-looking quip that appeals to the young and young at heart but which turns out to be a load of nonsense.

Johnson refuted Bishop Berkeley's similar relativising attempts by kicking a stone, demonstrating that facts, like material objects, exist. Nietzsche didn't read Boswell.

Given that morality has changed over time, a point he shows in On the Genealogy of Morals, it is hard to argue a case for objective, absolute morality.

Nietzsche's point could be refuted by his own hand - that there are only interpretations and not facts - but this would only reaffirm his stance that morality isn't stagnant.

Morality is NOT changing. Antigone, the Iliad, the story of the taming of Enkidu, the Bible, Marcus Aurelius, Boethius, Julius Caesar, etc would be meaningless to us if morality was really changing over time.

What is the common thread of morality that runs through these characters and texts?

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Soren

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #61 - Jul 6^th, 2015 at 5:58pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 5:31pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 9:52pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 9:03pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 7:06pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 6:40pm:

Nietzsche isn't all bad. His criticisms of equality are spot on.

Not a thing you can say if you accept what is nothing more than a linguistic paradox that he was taken in by: there is no right or wrong.

He also said that there are no such things as facts, only interpretations, which is the same sort of elegant-looking quip that appeals to the young and young at heart but which turns out to be a load of nonsense.

Johnson refuted Bishop Berkeley's similar relativising attempts by kicking a stone, demonstrating that facts, like material objects, exist. Nietzsche didn't read Boswell.

Given that morality has changed over time, a point he shows in On the Genealogy of Morals, it is hard to argue a case for objective, absolute morality.

Nietzsche's point could be refuted by his own hand - that there are only interpretations and not facts - but this would only reaffirm his stance that morality isn't stagnant.

Morality is NOT changing. Antigone, the Iliad, the story of the taming of Enkidu, the Bible, Marcus Aurelius, Boethius, Julius Caesar, etc would be meaningless to us if morality was really changing over time.

What is the common thread of morality that runs through these characters and texts?

The centrality of the individual, the light of reason, public mindedness and cooperation, kindness, love of family and neighbour, excellence, striving for betterment.

And of course, above all, confidence - now actively and relentlessly undermined by shrill relativising.

You can look at Western Art, as Kenneth Clark points out, and see the motivating spirit.
What is the motivating spirit of this?

http://artstuffbitch.blogspot.com.au/2011/06/piero-manzoni-artists-poo-merda.htm...

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« Last Edit: Jul 6^th, 2015 at 6:08pm by Soren »

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Emma

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #62 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 12:03am

This seems appropriate.

If the inward power that rules us be true to Nature, it will always adjust itself readily to the possibilities and opportunities offered by circumstance. It asks for no predeterminate material; in the pursuance of its aims it is willing to compromise; hindrances to its progress are merely converted into matter for its own use. It is like a bonfire mastering a heap of rubbish, which would have quenched a feeble glow; but its fiery blaze quickly assimilates the load, consumes it, and flames the higher for it.

From 'Marcus Aurelius' Meditations
translated by Maxwell Staniforth, 1964.

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong Reply #63 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 1:10am Choice between a slow burn or a high flame. Which will you choose? If you have children, you would naturally choose a slow burn.
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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong Reply #64 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 1:14am are you suggesting children are heaps of rubbish? If not, what ARE you trying to say.?
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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #65 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 10:15pm

Soren wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 5:58pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 5:31pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 9:52pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 9:03pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 7:06pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 6:40pm:

Nietzsche isn't all bad. His criticisms of equality are spot on.

Not a thing you can say if you accept what is nothing more than a linguistic paradox that he was taken in by: there is no right or wrong.

He also said that there are no such things as facts, only interpretations, which is the same sort of elegant-looking quip that appeals to the young and young at heart but which turns out to be a load of nonsense.

Johnson refuted Bishop Berkeley's similar relativising attempts by kicking a stone, demonstrating that facts, like material objects, exist. Nietzsche didn't read Boswell.

Given that morality has changed over time, a point he shows in On the Genealogy of Morals, it is hard to argue a case for objective, absolute morality.

Nietzsche's point could be refuted by his own hand - that there are only interpretations and not facts - but this would only reaffirm his stance that morality isn't stagnant.

Morality is NOT changing. Antigone, the Iliad, the story of the taming of Enkidu, the Bible, Marcus Aurelius, Boethius, Julius Caesar, etc would be meaningless to us if morality was really changing over time.

What is the common thread of morality that runs through these characters and texts?

The centrality of the individual, the light of reason, public mindedness and cooperation, kindness, love of family and neighbour, excellence, striving for betterment.

And of course, above all, confidence - now actively and relentlessly undermined by shrill relativising.

They are considered moral now by fair minded people, but not all were once moral, mostly because they didn't exist for sometime. For example, the concept of the individual, as we see it today, is a recent invention, from about the time of the Enlightenment (Protestantism and liberalism have helped shaped the modern understanding of the individual). Striving and betterment would have been an aristocratic pursuit before the masses were pulled out of the monotony of agriculture and got leisure time.

Quote:

You can look at Western Art, as Kenneth Clark points out, and see the motivating spirit.
What is the motivating spirit of this?

http://artstuffbitch.blogspot.com.au/2011/06/piero-manzoni-artists-poo-merda.htm...

I can only see a song in the link. Is there something I am missing?

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Soren

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #66 - Aug 24^th, 2015 at 1:43pm

‘Notes on the Death of Culture’ by Mario Vargas Llosa
In this accessible set of essays, the Nobel laureate argues that we have reached a time in which there is no culture

This is a book of mourning. What Vargas Llosa writes is a lament for how things used to be and how they are now in all aspects of life from the political to the spiritual. Like TS Eliot in his essay Notes Towards the Definition of Culture, written in 1948, he takes the concept of culture in the general sense as a shared sensibility, a way of life.
Eliot too saw culture decaying around him and foresaw a time in which there would be no culture. This time, Vargas Llosa argues, is ours. Eliot has since been under attack for what his critics often describe as his elitist attitudes – as well as much else – and Vargas Llosa will probably also be tarred with the same brush for his pains.
But we must be grateful to him for describing in a relatively orderly manner the chaos of hypocrisy and emptiness into which our globalised culture has plunged and to which we seem to have little option but to subscribe.
...
We have abandoned the former minority culture, which was truth-seeking, profound, quiet and subtle, in favour of mainstream or mass entertainment, which has to be accessible – and how brave if foolhardy of anyone these days to cast aspersions on accessibility – as well as sensation-loving and frivolous.

Value-free, this kind of culture is essentially valueless.
http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/book-review-notes-on-the-death-of-cultur...

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong Reply #67 - Aug 24^th, 2015 at 8:49pm this is a sad thing, but true. I look at the world today and see nothing that will save us from ourselves.
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Yadda

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #68 - Aug 26^th, 2015 at 3:08am

Emma wrote on Aug 24^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

this is a sad thing, but true.

I look at the world today and see nothing that will save us from ourselves.

No argument.

We are so offended, if our expectations are not pandered to, by everyone around us, our parents, our peers, our governments.

We are spiritually weak, and selfish.

Is there a solution ?

Pursue and defend truth.

Q.
Why truth ?

A.
Because where there is open truth, men are always offended by wrongdoing.

And that feeling of 'offence', tends to cause men, to seek to do what is correct.

No ?

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

.

Isaiah 1:16
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Jeremiah 22:3
Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong Reply #69 - Aug 26^th, 2015 at 11:28pm Yadda? these words you like to quote at every opportunity, are actually PART of the PROBLEM..!! Not part of the solution. We need cohesion not divergence. Talk about flogging a deaaad horse!!
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Yadda

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #70 - Aug 28^th, 2015 at 11:05am

Emma wrote on Aug 26^th, 2015 at 11:28pm:

Yadda?

these words you like to quote at every opportunity, are actually PART of the PROBLEM..!! Not part of the solution. We need cohesion not divergence.

Emma Peel,

How does a society of men [who desire to live together in peace] find [the word you used was] 'cohesion' [aka, social harmony] ?

I suspect that what you are suggesting, is that social cohesion and peace can be achieved [among a society of men], only when a society of men embrace tolerance of the 'other' ?

Am i correct in my assumption ?

Well, if that is so, ....i disagree, strongly.

IMO, a society of men can only hope to successfully live together in peace and social cohesion, if they can all [say, 95% of them] agree on a set of laws [i.e. restrictions in law, which apply to all of them], ....laws which govern their conduct towards other members of their society of men.

I would suggest, that it is the widely held respect for a [sensible] set of laws which [can] enable a society of men to live together in peace.

Do you disagree with that proposition ?

And conversely, i would suggest, that it is a widespread 'tolerance' of lawbreaking [within a society of men] which can and will destroy the peace which a society of men [may currently] enjoy.

Do you disagree with that proposition ?

IMO, promoting the ideal of "tolerance" [into a society] will not, and cannot, produce 'cohesion' within a society of men.

But what such an ideal will produce is lawlessness [and the breakdown of 'the peace', in a society of men], imo.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1434160480/2#2
Quote:

"Tolerance", is a really great sounding word, and "tolerance", is a great sounding concept.

But in a society where "tolerance" is the highest ideal, imo, it is only those who would choose to routinely do what would normally be deemed to be socially unacceptable, who are going to be the winners, who are going to be the beneficiaries of such an 'ideal', as "tolerance".

IMO, the call today for "tolerance", is another expression, another call, for the abandonment of law [i.e. the abandonment of ACTUAL - judgement - against bad behaviour].

And imo, many of those who are calling for "tolerance", are, in reality, calling for [i.e. are encouraging!!] lawlessness.

They are calling for a society where every wickedness, is given licence.

Dictionary;
licence = =
1 a permit from an authority to own or use something, do a particular thing, or carry on a trade (especially in alcoholic liquor). Ø formal or official permission.
2 a writer’s or artist’s conventional freedom to deviate from facts or accepted rules.
3 freedom to behave without restraint.

.

Emma Peel,

Perhaps a government of men, could enact a law that required everyone [in their society] to 'tolerate' every one else in their society ?

That would work, wouldn't it!

Because 'tolerance' would have the force of the law of the land!

And you could simply remove all of the 'intolerant' people from society, .......just put all of the intolerant people in prison - for breaking the law!

RESULT ?

A HUMAN SOCIETY WHICH IS A UTOPIA ON EARTH !!!!

Quick!, write a letter today, to your parliamentary representative, suggesting the enactment of such a law !!!!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong Reply #71 - Aug 28^th, 2015 at 7:39pm wow YADDA you are amazingly capable of taking a small statement and creating a rant of truly wondrous proportion. I commend you. You even create an entire society to enhance your words. Incredible
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Emma

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #72 - Aug 28^th, 2015 at 7:41pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 26^th, 2015 at 3:08am:

[quote author=jalane3311@yahoo.c link=1426109275/67#67 date=1440413397]this is a sad thing, but true.

I look at the world today and see nothing that will save us from ourselves.

No argument.

Why then Yadda, do you argue.?

No,, oops , sorry... don't answer that. I don't care.

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 20955 A cat with a view	Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong Reply #73 - Aug 29^th, 2015 at 1:23pm "Well i started out down a dirty road.....and the world got still.....I'm learning to fly but i ain't got wings..." *Tom Petty* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WowZLe95WDY The guy is a philosopher.
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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong Reply #74 - Sep 7^th, 2015 at 11:37pm as you like Yadda. Did he write the "Stand my ground, won't back down' tune.? or was that Thorogood.? Nah I think it might have been Petty.
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