Australian Politics Forum - Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?

red baron

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Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?
Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:21pm

An argument had been gathering strength when Ray Hadley asked the Police Commissioner Scipione why the Policer Sniper did not take out Monis.

Skipione is alleged to have told Hadley that the Police Sniper could not penetrate the windows which were thick old bank windows and that it wouldn't have worked.

I have a little advice for Commissioner Scipione. If the Police Sniper had a fifty calibre sniper rifle, which is de rigour for any sniper worth their salt then:

The sniper clearly had shots on Monis. I can say this because image of Monis in the windows of the building have been beamed out to the world.

Then: The sniper would have fired one 50 calibre round which would had effectively shattered the glass. I don't car how thick it was, it was old thick glass and not state of the art stuff. A fifty calibre round would have smashed it to smitherteens. The second round would have gone straight into Monis.

Why wasn't the shot taken? I am not buying Scipione's response. Was the Police Sniper under orders 'not to fire' even if he had the shot?

The more think about this the more I believe the S.A.S. should have taken over the siege right from the get go.

Scipione may have his strengths but controlling a siege is not one of them. The S.A.S. are far higher trained for such scenarios.

I say this with all due respect to the brave Police involved but I think that Monis could have been taken out and the S.A.S. would have taken the shot early in the piece.

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Aussie

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Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?
Reply #1 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:26pm

I guess you reckon you know far more than the snipers on the spot who would have had access to the very weapon you are referring to. If they could have safely taken the shot, they would have. They did not, so it is very obvious that the snipers acknowledged they could not safely shoot AND hit with a kill.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72269 Gender:	Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis? Reply #2 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:28pm red baron wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:21pm: Why wasn't the shot taken they were worried that he had explosives with a dead mans trigger ... and you claim you were a cop . Were you thrown off the force by chance?
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Redmond Neck Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 20720 ACT Gender:	Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis? Reply #3 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:31pm I suspect the thick glass could have resulted in the bullet going anywhere. Like into an innocent!
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?
Reply #4 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:38pm

Shooting through glass does strange things to the projectile, it is not a case of penetration but one of accuracy.
Hollow point and expanding rounds will start to expand from glass impact,a FMJ would cut through, it will still deviate from where you were aiming.

The 50 cal is meant for stopping vehicles and long distance shots of over 1km,military sniper riles go rom 7.62-300win mag-338 lapua and 50 cal, the 7.62 or 300win mag is more than enough for this job.

I would say rules of engagement are why they did not shoot, they had to wait for him to shoot before they could act,when he starting shooting the police acted.

I think the ROE should be changed in hostage situations to allow police to shoot the hostage takers when the first clear shot is available.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?
Reply #5 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:45pm

.50 cal sniper rifles are not used all that much by professional snipers Red. .338 is presently the preferred calibre instead. .50 cal rifles tend to be big, heavy and generally unwieldy.

Why does front bar barrackers like you always have to try and second guess the men on the spot, who are the ones involved in the situation? You weren't there, you don't know what all the factors were which prevented a shot being taken and you have absolutely no smacking idea about what was going on, beyond what the MSM with it's light-weight "journalists" were telling you. The Police are the professionals who were there, who did know what was going on (or at least more than you did) and made the decisions on that basis.

Mons was not taken out for good, sound tactical reasons - at the time. Leave it at that. Roll Eyes

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jackmountain

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Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?
Reply #6 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:47pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:45pm:

.50 cal sniper rifles are not used all that much by professional snipers Red. .338 is presently the preferred calibre instead. .50 cal rifles tend to be big, heavy and generally unwieldy.

Why does front bar barrackers like you always have to try and second guess the men on the spot, who are the ones involved in the situation? You weren't there, you don't know what all the factors were which prevented a shot being taken and you have absolutely no smacking idea about what was going on, beyond what the MSM with it's light-weight "journalists" were telling you. The Police are the professionals who were there, who did know what was going on (or at least more than you did) and made the decisions on that basis.

Mons was not taken out for good, sound tactical reasons - at the time. Leave it at that. Roll Eyes

You just so smart Professor Google, I bet you are ex speshal ops Grin

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 57172 Here Gender:	Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis? Reply #7 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:56pm Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis? I hope that it was because they didn't get a clear safe shot and with people lined up with their hands on the window I suspect it could be true.
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John Smith

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Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?
Reply #8 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:59pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:56pm:

Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?

I hope that it was because they didn't get a clear safe shot and with people lined up with their hands on the window I suspect it could be true.

i doubt that was the reason .. a good sniper can take your head off from over a km away ... there were plenty of clear shots to be had, at least on the newsfootage ... if the tv cameras could see him, so could the snipers.

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Lionel Edriess

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Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?
Reply #9 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 5:00pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:28pm:

red baron wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:21pm:

Why wasn't the shot taken

they were worried that he had explosives with a dead mans trigger ... and you claim you were a cop .

Were you thrown off the force by chance?

Jeez!

I think I may have said exactly the same thing in another thread.

Without the sneer at the end.

Cool

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jackmountain

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Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?
Reply #10 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 5:01pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:59pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:56pm:

Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?

I hope that it was because they didn't get a clear safe shot and with people lined up with their hands on the window I suspect it could be true.

i doubt that was the reason .. a good sniper can take your head off from over a km away ... there were plenty of clear shots to be had, at least on the newsfootage ... if the tv cameras could see him, so could the snipers.

Yep didn't ya know Professor Google here was ex speshal farses Grin

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longweekend58

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Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?
Reply #11 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 5:04pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:26pm:

I guess you reckon you know far more than the snipers on the spot who would have had access to the very weapon you are referring to. If they could have safely taken the shot, they would have. They did not, so it is very obvious that the snipers acknowledged they could not safely shoot AND hit with a kill.

and the outcome shows the paucity of that argument. Two people dead when it could have been none. the police commander lacked the balls for what is a risky shot. But what is the point in having a sniper at all if you never use them? When you hold hostages and you are armed then you forfeit your right to anything but lethal force which is exactly what happened in the end anyhow. But it could have ended 12 hours earlier.

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longweekend58

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Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?
Reply #12 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 5:06pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:28pm:

red baron wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 4:21pm:

Why wasn't the shot taken

they were worried that he had explosives with a dead mans trigger ... and you claim you were a cop .

Were you thrown off the force by chance?

There has never been such an incident in Australia and so the likelihood of that being true was extremely low until the first hostages escaped at which point the chance was ZERO.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis? Reply #13 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 5:06pm A clear shot, yes. Through plate glass into a room full of hostages would be unpredictable. There is also the bad press to be considered. Monis had not killed anyone at that point.
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longweekend58

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Re: Why didn't the Police Sniper take out Monis?
Reply #14 - Dec 20^th, 2014 at 5:07pm

[quote author=Baronvonrort link=1419056480/4#4 date=1419057507]Shooting through glass does strange things to the projectile, it is not a case of penetration but one of accuracy.
Hollow point and expanding rounds will start to expand from glass impact,a FMJ would cut through, it will still deviate from where you were aiming.

The 50 cal is meant for stopping vehicles and long distance shots of over 1km,military sniper riles go rom 7.62-300win mag-338 lapua and 50 cal, the 7.62 or 300win mag is more than enough for this job.

I would say rules of engagement are why they did not shoot, they had to wait for him to shoot before they could act,when he starting shooting the police acted.

I think the ROE should be changed in hostage situations to allow police to shoot the hostage takers when the first clear shot is available.[/quote]

exactly.

the notion that the snipers couldn't get thru a café window was foolish and wrong.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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