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Patriotism v. Racism? (Read 7069 times)
Raven
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #45 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 1:58am
 
Freedumb wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 1:18am:
Black_Flag wrote on Oct 17th, 2014 at 10:08pm:
Guys, just to confirm. I am no other person, if you need an intro to me I'm 17 from Brisbane, by not means an intellectual, just an underachieving kid with above average intelligence but struggle to show this intelligence because of modern education processes who reward kids who can regurgitate information, who think that because they can memorize what other people have recorded and said, that it makes them smart. I am very opinionated and strong willed in my beliefs. However, lately I realized that many of my previous views are unrefined and I have gone about refining them through reading certain influential autobiographies on both sides of politics, as well as other famous literary works such as Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" etc. My joining of this forum is an extension of that and to be honest, I am extremely happy with the communications and discussions that are on this website. I am not Jasin, or whoever else seems to be infamous on here.


Welcome to the forum.

To explain, there is a certain individual in here who likes to come in under different nicknames and pretend to be a different person each time though it is obvious that it's the same person. I perceived you to be this person from your first post but I think otherwise now, so I apologise for that.

It's great that you're showing an interest in such matters. A lot of people, particularly of your age group wouldn't. I'm quite young myself, aged 23. Most people my age prefer getting drunk or drugged and posting selfies on Facebook.  Tongue Yours wouldn't be much different.

The people on this forum are great. They are very intelligent and informative. Of course you get people who try to insult you and what not but let's face it, it's human nature to do that. Just try not to get roped into the tit-for-tat game and you'll have a good experience here. There is a lot of diversity amongst the people here; religious beliefs, political views, opinions, etc.

Also, keep reading the stuff you are reading. Look for various sources, don't just stick to one. Expand your views, be willing to change your mind if something really sticks out for you and don't let pride and prejudice get in the way. It's okay to be wrong and ignorant, there is much to learn. People only use 10 per cent of their brains, after all (supposedly).  Wink


Seconded. Welcome to OzPolitic enjoy your time here
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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Raven
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #46 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 2:11am
 
Black_Flag wrote on Oct 16th, 2014 at 7:57pm:
Raven I understand that patriotism usually refers to heritage. But patriotism could also be used today, there is a lot to love our country for.


Indeed there is BF the positives of being Australian overwhelmingly outweigh any negatives.

However Love it or Leave it? What kind of country are we talking about? As Raven has said earlier, his idea of what Australia is, is different to what another's idea of Australia is.

Raven childhood was different to how the majority of Australians were raised, therefore his view of Australia is different then most.

Which view do we consider when we ask wether or not we Love it or Leave it?
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

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cods
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #47 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 9:20am
 
Raven wrote on Oct 17th, 2014 at 10:41pm:
cods wrote on Oct 16th, 2014 at 7:37pm:
Raven wrote on Oct 16th, 2014 at 6:46pm:
Most likely the real problem people had with the shirt is that they feel their view of what constitutes "Australia" is under challenge. Love it or leave it is a gesture of indignity and affront.

It rankles not so much because it's racist, or bigoted, but because it is so weirdly distant from the truth: a hostile defence of an idea of this country that either never truly existed or has long since been transformed by the march of people, ideas and simple time.

A country is inherently progressive, a notion that evolves with the people and ideas it contains. The inertia in that process is the sort of conservatism so angry at that transformation it is driven to the threat of love it or leave; a conservatism that fixes on an imagined figment, a precious impression of the past.

Love it or leave is the loss of a reality that is essentially imagined, or narrowly self-reflective and nostalgic.

It's not patriotism rather it is a shrine to a past that never was but for some will always be.



I use the expression TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT  a lot??..

what does that say about me?...

you come to my house you get the choice of one meal and one dessert..

its called TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT>.

dont mess with me.


But in this instance what is IT?

It for you is not necessarily it for Raven.

Your idea of it can be completely different to what your neighbours consider it

So Love It or Leave It. Love What or Leave What?



that isnt easy to explain in a few words raven...

when I talk MY HOME I talk MY COUNTRY my home is my country..

before you accept an invite to my home/country you would have some ides of my values...I might even go to the trouble of making a list...but you would have some idea before you accept said invite..

all I ask is you obey my rules.. it is my house/country..

when you come to my home... and you chose to wear a burqua I feel I have the right to ask you to remove it whilst in my home..it makes me uncomfortable....if you are uncomfortable about removing it in my company... should you have accepted my kind offer of coming into my home..???..

I have rather a blunt way of telling my grandkids about rules...call them laws call them regulations I dont care what you call them.. but it goes like this..

if you invited you mates into your home.. and one of them peed up against your lounge room wall ... what would you say to them....you can imagine what they say...

so what do you say to them when they say "oh but we can do that where I live no one cares."...you say.... well you dont do it in my home...if you come to my home these are the RULES/LAWS/ReGULATION..you use the toilet...

some times when I am talking to grandsons I use a bit of naughty language to switch the on button on..if you get my drift....

I like to think that anyone who comes here or is born here shares the same values.....no it doesnt mean we all eat or dress the same.. but flag burning..threatening the law enforces with beheading...isnt one of my values or Australias as far as I can make out...at least I hope it never comes to that...

the sign "love it or leave it"...could be said of spinach as well. I love spinach.

I hope this helps in some way..
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Dnarever
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #48 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 9:40am
 
cods wrote on Oct 17th, 2014 at 9:49pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 17th, 2014 at 6:24pm:
cods wrote on Oct 17th, 2014 at 5:08pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 17th, 2014 at 5:00pm:
cods wrote on Oct 17th, 2014 at 4:58pm:
[urlhttp://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/racial-connotations-over-black-sheep-prompts-changes-to-baa-baa-black-sheep-at-victorian-kinders/story-fni0fit3-1227093091674?sv=e95b37ee5b9cf71e75c264688ecffa04][/url]


ooops left out the bit about sexism..little BOY who lives down the lane..


It has nothing to do with Chrissy Pyne?



nah they think it should be Julia lived down the lane...


When I was very young I had a book about Big ears and Golly wogs, 15 or so years later I was playing footy with them. It did catch on.



so its racists like you that have now got rid of baa baa black sheep....shame on you shame...


I didn't say it was racist just that I know them.

What is racist about big ears - Tony would be using that one for sure. I also know Gonzo. (The great Gonzo to some).
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Lord Herbert
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #49 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 9:43am
 
Good post, cods.

It always frustrated me that the government seemed to think it was only a matter of teaching migrants to speak English that needed doing in order to make them assimilate as 'Australians'.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

WAY more important has been the need to teach the various immigrant ethnicities the Do's and Don'ts of acceptable behaviour within the context of Australia's Anglo-Saxon social mores, values, and ethics.

In my personal experience over a period of 50 years as a visitor to your country, the discordant behaviour of migrants has been a source of endless irritation to my Anglo sensibilities.

But I'll say no more.
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cods
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #50 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 10:06am
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 9:43am:
Good post, cods.

It always frustrated me that the government seemed to think it was only a matter of teaching migrants to speak English that needed doing in order to make them assimilate as 'Australians'.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

WAY more important has been the need to teach the various immigrant ethnicities the Do's and Don'ts of acceptable behaviour within the context of Australia's Anglo-Saxon social mores, values, and ethics.

In my personal experience over a period of 50 years as a visitor to your country, the discordant behaviour of migrants has been a source of endless irritation to my Anglo sensibilities.

But I'll say no more.



you know I used to cringe when they had those union stirrers on the News on TV and they all had bloody North Shields accents... I used to swear they were just brought over here to cause trouble....I spent many years in the Wollongong district you name it it was there..every kind..but the Northern English and the Scots accent seemed to be sh!t stirrers for a long time...

hangs head in shame.... you come here for a better life.. why bring all that with you?
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Lord Herbert
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #51 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 10:26am
 
cods wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 10:06am:
hangs head in shame.... you come here for a better life.. why bring all that with you?


At the place I worked we didn't have a solitary English union delegate ~ they were all little smart-arsed Greeks strutting around like little puffed-up bantam cocks.

They were the very same mentality that recently brought Greece onto its knees in total collapse as the Homeless Bum nation of Europe, needing Germany and Britain to flip a few coins into its begging bowl to keep it from disappearing all together.




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cods
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #52 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 10:33am
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 10:26am:
[quote author=cods link=1413446861/50#50 date=1413590806]

hangs head in shame.... you come here for a better life.. why bring all that with you?


At the place I worked we didn't have a solitary English union delegate ~ they were all little smart-arsed Greeks strutting around like little puffed-up bantam cocks.

They were the very same mentality that recently brought Greece onto its knees in total collapse as the Homeless Bum nation of Europe, needing Germany and Britain to flip a few coins into its begging bowl to keep it from disappearing all together.



I know I was just thinking it takes all kinds...I was going back quite a few years...60s and 70s..

yesterday wasnt it???



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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #53 - Oct 23rd, 2014 at 12:56am
 
Kat wrote on Oct 16th, 2014 at 9:53pm:
From the 'singlet' thread, but worth repeating here, and I don't feel like re-typing it....

I wrote:

Quote:
I don't disapprove of the singlets per se, nor do I swallow the claims that the slogan is racist.

But it is Nationalistic and jingoistic, and that does disturb me. The real targets of these slogans isn't migrants
or boat-people, it's dissenting Aussies who won't sign to play on 'Team Australia'....


...While I love Australia as a country, I have no love at all for its current political and social situation, nor where it
is heading. And I will not be leaving, I will be remaining here to fight 'Team Australia' and its supporters and
return this country to what it once was before the neo-con 'invasion'. I do not and will not resile from that.

And for those who do not like that, I cordially suggest that you leave.




Well said and your instincts are correct imo.

  Just started on the topic so will continue reading...
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Emma
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #54 - Oct 23rd, 2014 at 1:08am
 
Dnarever wrote on Oct 17th, 2014 at 5:04pm:
Patriotism v. Racism?

Irrespective of the singlet you could be excused for thinking that to not be racist in todays Australia is unpatriotic.


AHHH yes Dnarever  .. seems things are heading that way  ..have been for a long time..

Racism ?  very sad because it shows a definite  lack of intellect ..
people who espouse this type of hatred are actually low IQ individuals.. according to a recent study.
  Fancy that..??

No I find most ranters are just parrots repeating some words they don't actually comprehend.

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Emma
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #55 - Oct 23rd, 2014 at 1:14am
 
Black_Flag wrote on Oct 17th, 2014 at 10:08pm:
Guys, just to confirm. I am no other person, if you need an intro to me I'm 17 from Brisbane, by not means an intellectual, just an underachieving kid with above average intelligence but struggle to show this intelligence because of modern education processes who reward kids who can regurgitate information, who think that because they can memorize what other people have recorded and said, that it makes them smart. I am very opinionated and strong willed in my beliefs. However, lately I realized that many of my previous views are unrefined and I have gone about refining them through reading certain influential autobiographies on both sides of politics, as well as other famous literary works such as Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" etc. My joining of this forum is an extension of that and to be honest, I am extremely happy with the communications and discussions that are on this website. I am not Jasin, or whoever else seems to be infamous on here.


Good on you.. I'm a 57 yr old living in SEQ  .. and you know there is nothing better for me than to hear a young person like yourself questioning the status quo.

Don't let the creepy trolls on this forum get to you.. they are just piss weak.. and could do with a few new ideas. Smiley
Smiley
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Emma
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #56 - Oct 23rd, 2014 at 1:30am
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 9:43am:
Good post, cods.

It always frustrated me that the government seemed to think it was only a matter of teaching migrants to speak English that needed doing in order to make them assimilate as 'Australians'.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

WAY more important has been the need to teach the various immigrant ethnicities the Do's and Don'ts of acceptable behaviour within the context of Australia's Anglo-Saxon social mores, values, and ethics.

In my personal experience over a period of 50 years as a visitor to your country, the discordant behaviour of migrants has been a source of endless irritation to my Anglo sensibilities.
But I'll say no more.



That would be really good you racist pommy arselicker
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Emma
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #57 - Oct 23rd, 2014 at 1:38am
 
but seriously people.. it has been shown that people who exhibit these tendencies are ruled by fear.. of something or someone different..  fear.. 


FEAR..  which leads to anger and hatred.. a knee-jerk defence mechanism that belongs in prehistory.

We will never fulfil our true potential when we continue to bind ourselves to this fear of 'otherness'. and..

YES.. studies HAVE shown that people with this dichotomy of existence ARE BELOW AVERAGE intelligence.




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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #58 - Oct 23rd, 2014 at 10:47pm
 
jeez  where have all the below ave IQ posters gone..??   Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: Patriotism v. Racism?
Reply #59 - Oct 23rd, 2014 at 11:15pm
 
see?  Patriotism  is all well and good.. NOT. Sad

I see Patriotism as an artificial means of segregating and encouraging divisive policies in Govt.  Nothing more.  ALL OVER THE WORLD.  After all,  nature hasn't made up these groupings of stakeholders..  WE HAVE.

NO real good can come from it...  we probably mostly believe.. (at least here in the West) that our country is the best.

It is a puerile harmful and anti-human philosophy.

I need NOT draw you comparisons from History.  WE ALL KNOW THIS IS SO.

But you see?  perverse as we are as human beings, we will use any excuse to lay waste to our perceived enemies.

Women and children are locked up by us for undetermined/indefinite periods of time, in conditions I wouldn't put my DOG in. OR MY WORST ENEMY, for that matter. 
We are stinking hypocrits egged on by patriotic BS and racist policies.

We are despicable. WE voted in this govt.. WE are responsible for the torturous conditons and deaths. 

WHY..?? 

FEAR .. babies.  That is it.   YOU are so poo scared  because YOU KNOW YOU have done nothing to deserve your precious place in this world.  You were lucky where you were born..
  You do not appreciate what you have...  and you drag us aLL into the scum of malicious hateful spiteful fearful, and ultimately, destructive, nationalisn and racism.


Sad Sad  VALE AUSTRALIA.  Sad



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