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Islamic secularism (Read 3141 times)
freediver
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Islamic secularism
Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:21pm
 
Is Islam compatible with secularism? Do Muslims even understand the concept of separation of church and state?

Gandalf has for a long time promoted himself as a strong secularist, and tried to paint Islam and Muslims as compatible with secularism. At the same time, he has given examples of Muslims rejecting and winding back secularism. Lately, he has let the facade down even further and offered us a glimpse of what he means by secularism. One of his recent posts:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 5:45pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 4:56pm:
I cannot understand your description of Muhammed as a secular ruler. I asked you to back this claim up last post.


Now now FD, don't be telling fibs.That was the first time I used the term, and you asked no such thing.

Anyway... Muhammad was a secular ruler, thats a simple statement of fact. He ruled over a multi-faith city state, and clearly made worldly rulings and political decisions that really had nothing to do with what we now term islamic doctrine. Thats the context in which I see the sentence carried out on the Banu Qurayza. A regular secular ruler, ruling purely in the interests of his worldly secular state.


How he spun it earlier:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17th, 2013 at 8:44pm:
Sorry, I must be still missing it. I'll just clarify my position (again), and hopefully it will answer whatever you want answered:
- I support secularism
- I support democracy
- I oppose dictatorships

Opposing dictatorships means all dictatorships - whether they be secular or religious. Saying I support secularism doesn't mean I support secular dictators - Clear?


polite_gandalf wrote on May 9th, 2013 at 11:01pm:
And yet they choose a secular democracy, in which sharia law is largely rejected.


polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 19th, 2013 at 3:34pm:
Lebanese criminals, like all criminals in Australia are secular


polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:48am:
Muslims are to blame for this mess - namely the foreigners that the fake Saudi and Qatari regimes are pumping in with the specific aim of destabilizing the once stable secular nation.


polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 9:03am:
you seem to have a particular beef with the muslim brotherhood Herb. What is the basis of this? They were actually rather moderate during their brief rule in Egypt - desperately pandering to both the US and Israel, and not doing much at all to dismantle the secular Egypt society.


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22nd, 2013 at 1:23pm:
over 60% of muslims live not in the middle east, but in south and south-east asia, and these populations overwhelmingly have secular/democratic attitudes.


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22nd, 2013 at 3:38pm:
80% of muslims now live outside the arab middle east, and 60% of them live in south and south-east asia - from Turkey to Indonesia. The vast majority of these countries are secular and democratic.


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22nd, 2013 at 5:48pm:
Of course there are "very clear reasons" why Turkey has rejected fundamentalism, but not one of them change the fact that muslims demonstrably can and have become secular and progressive.


polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 12th, 2014 at 6:35am:
These 'secular' motives are far worse IMO, and your little crusader meme is just a stupid red herring that distracts from the real crimes committed by the west


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 1st, 2014 at 6:37pm:
Of course muslim opinions supporting liberal/secular things will be discarded, and we will be promptly told to defer back to Abu and Falah.


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 5th, 2014 at 6:52am:
And yes, the 19th century zionist movement was a secular/non-religious movement. Just basic facts of history guys.


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 11:22am:
freediver wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 8:03pm:
A secular justification - what does that mean?

secular - as in non-religious justifications


polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7th, 2014 at 5:29pm:
Islam today is dominated by people who are in a post-colonial, anti-west state of mind. Theology and geopolitics are more intertwined than they have ever been. There is a perceived victimhood amongst muslims, especially in former colonies (which is most of the muslim world today), which gives rise to violence and irrational behaviour that is, at its core, entirely secular in nature, but have been infused with islamic ideology.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8th, 2014 at 8:45am:
The biggest threat to democracy in Islam's traditional heartland is a combination of secular dictators, and US intervention.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 23rd, 2014 at 11:51pm:
For me, islam is not a political ideology, it is a very personal thing only, and I have no desire to make it political. I'm sure thats the attitude of a great many muslims in Australia - who like me, strongly advocate peace and secular values.
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Re: Islamic secularism
Reply #1 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:21pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 12:13pm:
Exactly. I think we worked out about half Malaysian muslims advocate secular values like freedom of religion and not applying hudud laws. That would just reinforce the view that "a great many" muslims in a western country like Australia have similar, and even more secular views. So please pull out the evil views of approximately half of all Malaysian muslims - it just reinforces my claim.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 27th, 2014 at 7:43pm:
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make though - yes there is a victimhood mentality that is shared by people who are not directly victims. But it doesn't in any way diminish the fact that the root cause of it all, even if it takes religious dimensions, is secular in nature and not directly stemming from islamic ideology. Entirely consistent with what you said - that first quote is basically a carbon copy of what was said in that 2007 quote of yours.


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3rd, 2014 at 4:36pm:
The author of this article argues that most western reporters are non-religious, and therefore tend to view religious persecutions in secular terms. Hence they are framed in more economic and socio-political terms, and the importance of religion in non-western cultures is downplayed and poorly understood.


polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26th, 2014 at 6:50pm:
And you couldn't be more wrong about the impossibility of secular attacks on islam. Turkey has systematically effectively banned religion from public life in the last few decades - I don't recall any riots or beheadings - do you?


polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 4:07pm:
Just to be clear  - you can't understand the difference between a specific call by God himself to slaughter babies, and in doing so will bring you closer to God, written in the Holy Book - with a secular ruling carried out by a secular ruler, that is not justified in religious terms, and is not even mentioned in the religion's Holy Book?

In short, I see no good reason why muslims need to condemn the actions of their prophet as a necessary prerequisite to embracing 21st century secular values.


polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 5:45pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 4:56pm:
I cannot understand your description of Muhammed as a secular ruler. I asked you to back this claim up last post.


Now now FD, don't be telling fibs.That was the first time I used the term, and you asked no such thing.

Anyway... Muhammad was a secular ruler, thats a simple statement of fact. He ruled over a multi-faith city state, and clearly made worldly rulings and political decisions that really had nothing to do with what we now term islamic doctrine. Thats the context in which I see the sentence carried out on the Banu Qurayza. A regular secular ruler, ruling purely in the interests of his worldly secular state.


polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 3:33pm:
The idea that muslims should flagrantly violate this message and instead take an unfortunate incident where the Prophet had to apply heavy justice for a particular circumstance that was forced upon him as leader of a secular (yes secular) state - as a free license to mass execute jews wherever they can be found - is obviously absurd.


polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22nd, 2012 at 8:43pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 22nd, 2012 at 7:53pm:
So it is all about secularists fighting secularists over secularism, and it is an accident that the Jews are on one side and Muslims on the other?

smart alec quips don't change the facts that I pointed out FD. I can only repeat again that the first belligerents were secularists, and remained secularists throughout the conflict until the very recent history.
Militants who happen to be jewish fighting militants who happen to be muslim doesn't in itself make it a religious conflict. The zionists who pushed for a jewish state in the late 19th and early 20th centuries were not fighting for religious motives


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 10:49am:
freediver wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 8:23am:
Kind of hypocritical don't you think, coming from someone who berated me in the first half of this thread for not consulting the most learned of learned before saying anything about Islam, and not using an academic referencing standard on a wiki. But you can use Saddam Hussein's example to argue the true nature of Islam.


I'm sorry, is anything I said about Saddam actually disputed? Perhaps you are confused by my use of the word "air" - as in "an air of 'islamic rule' to placate the islamists" - which means superficial, illlusory - for appearances sake only.


polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 8th, 2013 at 9:22pm:
Also 'fanatically secular' was not really meant to be a term of derision. I happen to support secularism, and I believe the Turks deserve much praise for what they have achieved.
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Re: Islamic secularism
Reply #2 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:22pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 20th, 2013 at 5:34pm:
No, anti-islam in Europe is overwhelmingly based on fear of what might happen, not what is already evident. I point you to the post directly above yours as a classic example: warning that once muslims become 50% of the population, goodbye freedom and secularism in Europe. 


polite_gandalf wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 12:54pm:
I think its fair to say that Erdogan's beef, in that context, is Turkey's more militant form of secularism - where for example islamic headscarfs are banned for public servants.


polite_gandalf wrote on May 19th, 2013 at 9:56pm:
Soren wrote on May 19th, 2013 at 9:33pm:
You criticise Christianity or atheism or seculraism and nobody is going to riot or firebomb your mosque or call you a racist or otherwise threaten and intimidate you or call you a racist. They will mostly ignore you ar at most offer an explanation.

Interesting you leave out jews. I think we both know that if you included jews in this sentence, it would be an out and out lie. Apart from that, atheism and secularism are not religions, so can't be compared. They are basically set up to be trolls against organised religion, so criticism of these ideologies are fair enough. As far as christianity goes, I think you would find yourself in more trouble than you might think.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 3rd, 2013 at 10:29am:
Muslims standing up for secularism and democracy.
Good for them.


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17th, 2013 at 8:23pm:
secularism and islamic law, minority rights, women's rights, harbouring terrorists...just off the top of my head. Like I said there are lots


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17th, 2013 at 8:44pm:
Sorry, I must be still missing it. I'll just clarify my position (again), and hopefully it will answer whatever you want answered:
- I support secularism
- I support democracy
- I oppose dictatorships

Opposing dictatorships means all dictatorships - whether they be secular or religious. Saying I support secularism doesn't mean I support secular dictators - Clear?


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 9:29pm:
What Erdogan has attempted to do is address some of the madness - such as overturning the ban on headscarves in university. He is a committed secularist, but is opposed to the crazy militant "you-have-no-choice" brand of secularism. That spells a healthy democracy in my book.


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 12:30pm:
Is that why Turkey elected an islamist government? Don't confuse "Turkey" with those wealthy hipster students living it up in that Ankara park. What happened to that protest?

It petered out because they do not represent Turkish society. Turkey is overwhelmingly supportive of islamic law, and are growing increasingly alienated with the militant secularism imposed on them.


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22nd, 2013 at 7:01pm:
Right, fantastic, hallelujah - so we can both agree that I was wrong - that you were *NOT* trying to dispute the claim that Turkey is a relevant example of muslims being able to adopt and embrace secularism, democracy and freedom right in what you term the "heart of islam". 
Right?....
no I didn't think so...  Roll Eyes


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22nd, 2013 at 9:06pm:
Its got nothing to do with what I consider noble - we were talking about which states are, if you like, "sharia-minded" (stoning and the like). Secularism by definition is the very opposite to adopting and/or supporting such sharia laws like stoning and death for apostasy.


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16th, 2014 at 5:38pm:
Definitely not anything to do with the long tradition of secularism in Iraq that the islamists still have failed to root out of the population.


polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26th, 2014 at 12:29pm:
This monotonous, broken record argument is, and has been time and time again, easily refuted by citing the significant examples such as Indonesia (the largest muslim country on earth) and Turkey, where the moderates are at the vanguard - making secularism and democracy dominant and keeping extremists to the fringes.


polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26th, 2014 at 4:30pm:
Soren wrote on Sep 26th, 2014 at 4:25pm:
And secularism is an existential threat to islam.

Even if that was true - what is going to be the response that best serves the preservation of secularism? Declare war on 1 billion muslims? That seems self-defeating - but thats just me.


polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 7th, 2014 at 2:45pm:
The question you ask about secularism I cannot make sense of.
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Re: Islamic secularism
Reply #3 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:56pm
 
piss off
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islamic secularism
Reply #4 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 2:14pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:56pm:
piss off

Its like you're being stalked by a fanatic.
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Re: Islamic secularism
Reply #5 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 2:57pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:56pm:
piss off



Smiley




+++



'Islamic secularism' ???

That is like Military Intelligence, isn't it ???




ISLAM has made secularism unlawful.

That is correct, isn't it gandalf ?






ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06



There is no 'innocence' specified by ISLAM, for any person, who is NOT a moslem.



"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11



Sharia law, is the 'protection', of the [obedient] moslem.

That is correct, isn't it gandalf ?




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Islamic secularism
Reply #6 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 2:59pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 2:14pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:56pm:
piss off

Its like you're being stalked by a fanatic.

And then there were two!
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Yadda
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Re: Islamic secularism
Reply #7 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 3:00pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 2:14pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:56pm:
piss off


Its like you're being stalked by a fanatic.




Hey!!!!!

There is only one fanatic here, on OzPol, thank you very much!!!!!

Cheesy
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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Islamic secularism
Reply #8 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 3:02pm
 
Yadda wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 3:00pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 2:14pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:56pm:
piss off


Its like you're being stalked by a fanatic.




Hey!!!!!

There is only one fanatic here, on OzPol, thank you very much!!!!!

Cheesy

Or so you thought!
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Re: Islamic secularism
Reply #9 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 3:04pm
 


'Great minds think alike.'



North, are you a fanatic too ???        Smiley

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Islamic secularism
Reply #10 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 4:08pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17th, 2013 at 8:44pm:

Sorry, I must be still missing it. I'll just clarify my position (again), and hopefully it will answer whatever you want answered:
- I support secularism
- I support democracy
- I oppose dictatorships

Opposing dictatorships means all dictatorships - whether they be secular or religious. Saying I support secularism doesn't mean I support secular dictators - Clear?




gandalf,

If you endorse and support secularism ['secularism', that is condemned as a CAPITAL CRIME, by ISLAMIC religious texts] so wholeheartedly, then in what sense are you a 'moslem' ?

And how do you, as a moslem, define ISLAMIC apostasy ?

i.e.
#1,
What legal authority [emanating from within ISLAM], guides your 'determinations' as to what 'apostasy' is ?

#2,
What are the 'legal' characteristics of a devout moslem ?

#3,
And what are the 'legal' characteristics which confirm a moslem apostate [i.e. a person who is religiously denounced as a 'hypocrite', by the body of devout moslems, the ummah] ?



gandalf,

Do your really want us [those who read your posts here on OzPol] to believe that you,
1/ speak truthfully, and that,
2/ you really, really, sincerely, consider yourself to be a 'rightly guided' moslem ?



gandalf,

I do not doubt that you may sincerely consider yourself to be a 'rightly guided' moslem.

But, please explain to us, WHAT IS THE LEGAL BASIS [FROM WITHIN ISLAM], WHICH CONFIRMS YOUR 'RIGHTLY GUIDED MOSLEM' STATUS ?






Quote:

ISLAM has made secularism unlawful.

That is correct, isn't it gandalf ?






ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06



There is no 'innocence' specified by ISLAM, for any person, who is NOT a moslem.



"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11



Sharia law, is the 'protection', of the [obedient] moslem.

That is correct, isn't it gandalf ?


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Islamic secularism
Reply #11 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 7:16pm
 
I'm back.

Gandalf, does an Islamic State only cease to be secular after it has eradicated all non-Muslims?
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