Australian Politics Forum - Open letter to moderate muslims

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Open letter to moderate muslims Reply #30 - Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 11:57am freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 9:17am: So the 800 unarmed Jewish POWs that Muhammed killed after they surrendered without a fight were combatants? Not in the QUran. I believe I've pointed this out only about a thousand times
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Open letter to moderate muslims Reply #31 - Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 12:00pm freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 9:17am: You tried to convince me that it was only about killing hypocrites No I didn't. Do you ever tire of making sh*t up?
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Re: Open letter to moderate muslims
Reply #32 - Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 1:21pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 11:57am:

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 9:17am:

So the 800 unarmed Jewish POWs that Muhammed killed after they surrendered without a fight were combatants?

Not in the QUran. I believe I've pointed this out only about a thousand times

But still a great example for Muslims to follow, according to statements in the Koran, no?

Quote:

No I didn't. Do you ever tire of making sh*t up?

You said the correct interpretation of the verse is to kill hypocrites, not to kill apostates. I am not sure what difference this makes in practice. But let's start with the basics, do you support the killing of hypocrites according to this verse? Consider this an opportunity to demonstrate your 'not running away' credentials.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Open letter to moderate muslims
Reply #33 - Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 3:11pm

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 1:21pm:

You said the correct interpretation of the verse is to kill hypocrites, not to kill apostates. I am not sure what difference this makes in practice. But let's start with the basics, do you support the killing of hypocrites according to this verse? Consider this an opportunity to demonstrate your 'not running away' credentials.

If I did use the word 'hypocrite' (which I doubt) then I certainly didn't mean hypocrites like you - though I admit the idea does have a certain appeal.

The people being referred to are not annoying spineless apologist double-standard type people like yourself - but people who joined the muslim community under false pretenses, and used their inside position to engage in actual physical hostilities against muslims.

Long story short, its permitting violence strictly in the case of self defense - as the Quran only ever does.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17452 Gender:	Re: Open letter to moderate muslims Reply #34 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 10:31am polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 3:11pm: Long story short, its permitting violence strictly in the case of self defense - as the Quran only ever does. If as you claim the Quran only permits violence in self defence then explain what muslims were doing in the battle of Lepanto.
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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17452 Gender:	Re: Open letter to moderate muslims Reply #35 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 10:32am \|dev\|null wrote on Oct 12^th, 2014 at 8:17am: Interesting how Baron has gone MIA... I have been on holidays, it's something those of us who work are entitled to.
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Re: Open letter to moderate muslims
Reply #36 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 10:40am

freediver wrote on Oct 19^th, 2014 at 2:55pm:

From the article:

If any kind of literature is to be interpreted "metaphorically," it has to at least represent the original idea. Metaphors are meant to illustrate and clarify ideas, not twist and obscure them. When the literal words speak of blatant violence but are claimed to really mean peace and unity, we're not in interpretation/metaphor zone anymore; we're heading into distortion/misrepresentation territory. If this disconnect was limited to one or two verses, I would consider your argument. If your interpretation were accepted by all of the world's Muslims, I would consider your argument. Unfortunately, neither of these is the case.

Unfortunately, this is what's eating away at your credibility. This is what makes otherwise rational moderate Muslims look remarkably inconsistent. Despite your best intentions, you also embolden anti-Muslim bigots -- albeit unknowingly -- by effectively narrowing the differences between yourselves and the fundamentalists. You condemn all kinds of terrible things being done in the name of your religion, but when the same things appear as verses in your book, you use all your faculties to defend them. This comes across as either denial or disingenuousness, both of which make an honest conversation impossible.

Sounds like it was written for Gandalf.

And the solution:

You may find yourself asking, how is this possible? The book of the Jews is not much different from my book. How, then, are the majority of them secular? How is it that most don't take too seriously the words of the Torah/Old Testament -- originally believed to be the actual word of God revealed to Moses much like the Quran to Muhammad -- yet still retain strong Jewish identities? Can this happen with Islam and Muslims?

Clearly from the above, the answer is a tried-and-tested yes. And it must start by dissociating Islamic identity from Muslim identity -- by coming together on a sense of community, not ideology.

The word "moderate" has lost its credibility. Fareed Zakaria has referred to Middle Eastern moderates as a "fantasy." Even apologists like Nathan Lean are pointing out that the use of this word isn't helping anyone.

Islam needs reformers, not moderates. And words like "reform" just don't go very well with words like "infallibility."

Undecided

Why would muslims even consider reforming something they believe is infallible?

The ahmadi muslims are persecuted by mainstream Islam for heretical reforms, the ahmadi dropped the obligation for jihad and are happy with separation of mosque and state, the Ahmadi cannot even call themselves muslims in Pakistan where they originated due to these heretical reforms.
persecutionofahmadis.org

When mainstream Islam stops persecuting Ahmadi muslims then i will believe they are genuine about reform.

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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: Open letter to moderate muslims Reply #37 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 11:00am Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 10:32am: \|dev\|null wrote on Oct 12^th, 2014 at 8:17am: Interesting how Baron has gone MIA... I have been on holidays, it's something those of us who work are entitled to. Work? I thought it was an alien concept to you! So, you going to answer the questions?
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freediver

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Re: Open letter to moderate muslims
Reply #38 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 3:12pm

Quote:

If I did use the word 'hypocrite' (which I doubt) then I certainly didn't mean hypocrites like you - though I admit the idea does have a certain appeal.

In one of the verses under discussion, you insisted the correct translation of the Arabic word was hypocrit instead of apostate. I am happy to use the standard Islamic definition of hypocrit here. Either way, you are still killing people because of their religious views.

Quote:

The people being referred to are not annoying spineless apologist double-standard type people like yourself - but people who joined the muslim community under false pretenses, and used their inside position to engage in actual physical hostilities against muslims.

I see you are redefining hypocrit to mean people who engage in 'actual physical hostilities' against Muslims. Would this be the same sort of actual phyical hostilities that those 800 murdered Jews engaged in?

Quote:

Long story short, its permitting violence strictly in the case of self defense - as the Quran only ever does.

Defending yourself against hypocrisy?

Quote:

The ahmadi muslims are persecuted by mainstream Islam for heretical reforms

The correct term is hypocrisy. Or if you want to please Gandalf, 'actual physical hostilities'.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Open letter to moderate muslims Reply #39 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 3:21pm FD the verse in question very specifically describes the hypocrites in the context of being physically violent against the muslims - and makes it clear not to touch them if they cease being violent. Thus your entire post is rendered null and void.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47316 At my desk.	Re: Open letter to moderate muslims Reply #40 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 6:32pm Would that be the bit where the Koran says to kill them wherever you find them, unless they manage to find shelter with a group with whom you have a peace treaty, such that pursuing them would violate the treaty? Perhaps I am thinking of the wrong verse about killing people.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Open letter to moderate muslims Reply #41 - Oct 24^th, 2014 at 2:29pm I've already explained in great detail how your argument is based on cherry picking quotes while ignoring the entire passage. I'm not going over it all again.
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Soren

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Re: Open letter to moderate muslims
Reply #42 - Oct 24^th, 2014 at 4:13pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 24^th, 2014 at 2:29pm:

I've already explained in great detail how your argument is based on cherry picking quotes while ignoring the entire passage. I'm not going over it all again.

All it takes is for Muslims to declare themselves under attack (ie being victims) and the Koranic verses on fighting and killing are perfectly acceptable and need no further examination. As long as it's self-defence it's OK. This is why there is a grim determination to be victims, even when the atrocities are perpetrated in the name of Islam.

Once Muslims take responsibility and thereby cede the victimhood ground, all the bluster of resisting the crusaders falls away and the muslim-on-muslim violence is all that is left. But the victimhood mantra does not work there. Hence all the ludicrous ululating about how divisive Team Australia is.

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freediver

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Re: Open letter to moderate muslims
Reply #43 - Oct 24^th, 2014 at 7:10pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 24^th, 2014 at 2:29pm:

I've already explained in great detail how your argument is based on cherry picking quotes while ignoring the entire passage. I'm not going over it all again.

Actually it was me who quoted the entire passage. You offered your interpretation of it without quoting it, which would have been a bit inconvenient for you.

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Re: Open letter to moderate muslims
Reply #44 - Oct 25^th, 2014 at 12:56am

Soren wrote on Oct 24^th, 2014 at 4:13pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 24^th, 2014 at 2:29pm:

I've already explained in great detail how your argument is based on cherry picking quotes while ignoring the entire passage. I'm not going over it all again.

All it takes is for Muslims to declare themselves under attack (ie being victims) and the Koranic verses on fighting and killing are perfectly acceptable and need no further examination. As long as it's self-defence it's OK. This is why there is a grim determination to be victims, even when the atrocities are perpetrated in the name of Islam.

Once Muslims take responsibility and thereby cede the victimhood ground, all the bluster of resisting the crusaders falls away and the muslim-on-muslim violence is all that is left. But the victimhood mantra does not work there. Hence all the ludicrous ululating about how divisive Team Australia is.

Like you’d ever join Team Australia.

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