Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Speaking of 'collateral damage' in war ... (Read 423 times)
Lord Herbert
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 34441
Gender: male
Speaking of 'collateral damage' in war ...
Sep 22nd, 2014 at 7:01am
 
I didn't know the 1943 'Dambusters' raid cost the lives of over 1000 allied prisoners and forced labour slaves when the dams were breached.

Jesus.

That wasn't in the film. The Dam Busters movie

I used to wonder why they never made an updated movie of it with all the latest cinematic technology. This might be the reason why. Today it would soon come out that the raid was an appalling failure that achieved practically nothing and robbed so many families 'back home' of fathers, sons, brothers, and uncles.

What an appalling loss of innocent life, and apparently the Germans rebuilt the dams so quickly it made very little impact on their factory production in the Ruhr Valley.

I often have morning coffee with an old Dutch woman who was a girl in Rotterdam during its wartime bombing. She says she hopes none of the younger generation ever knows what it's like to be in the middle of a war zone.

Dam Busters anniversary
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mnemonic
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1530
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Speaking of 'collateral damage' in war ...
Reply #1 - Sep 22nd, 2014 at 11:40am
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Sep 22nd, 2014 at 7:01am:
What an appalling loss of innocent life, and apparently the Germans rebuilt the dams so quickly it made very little impact on their factory production in the Ruhr Valley.


Yeah, but it probably took a lot of their energy away from other important things.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Lord Herbert
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 34441
Gender: male
Re: Speaking of 'collateral damage' in war ...
Reply #2 - Sep 22nd, 2014 at 11:56am
 
Mnemonic wrote on Sep 22nd, 2014 at 11:40am:
Yeah, but it probably took a lot of their energy away from other important things.


The labour force would have been composed of allied prisoners of war, Jewish slave labour on a starvation diet, and old men and teenage Germans from the local area.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mnemonic
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1530
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Speaking of 'collateral damage' in war ...
Reply #3 - Sep 23rd, 2014 at 4:33pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Sep 22nd, 2014 at 11:56am:
The labour force would have been composed of allied prisoners of war, Jewish slave labour on a starvation diet, and old men and teenage Germans from the local area.


The same sweatshop labour force could have been used to build more fighters, bombers and tanks. Cheesy There was an opportunity cost to diverting this labour.

The important question is what it cost the British. Did the Germans lose more than the British? If so, and it set the Germans back, then the bombing raid was worth it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise#After_the_raid

Quote:
A few mines were flooded; 11 small factories and 92 houses were destroyed and 114 factories and 971 houses were damaged. The floods washed away about 25 roads, railways and bridges as the flood waters spread for around 50 miles (80 km) from the source.


Looks like the damage was quite extensive. Cheesy

Even if the Germans quickly rebuilt or repaired the dams, the British could have continued bombing the dams over and over again, leaving the Germans without electricity for months and maybe years. Blame it on Arthur Harris and his fixation with area bombing for the RAF not attempting bombing raids on these dams again. If it forced the Germans to build anti-aircraft batteries around the dams, that was even better.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ajax
Gold Member
*****
Offline


CO2 has never controlled
temperature on Earth

Posts: 10958
Australia
Gender: male
Re: Speaking of 'collateral damage' in war ...
Reply #4 - Sep 23rd, 2014 at 6:06pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Sep 22nd, 2014 at 7:01am:
I didn't know the 1943 'Dambusters' raid cost the lives of over 1000 allied prisoners and forced labour slaves when the dams were breached.

Jesus.

That wasn't in the film. The Dam Busters movie

I used to wonder why they never made an updated movie of it with all the latest cinematic technology. This might be the reason why. Today it would soon come out that the raid was an appalling failure that achieved practically nothing and robbed so many families 'back home' of fathers, sons, brothers, and uncles.

What an appalling loss of innocent life, and apparently the Germans rebuilt the dams so quickly it made very little impact on their factory production in the Ruhr Valley.

I often have morning coffee with an old Dutch woman who was a girl in Rotterdam during its wartime bombing. She says she hopes none of the younger generation ever knows what it's like to be in the middle of a war zone.

Dam Busters anniversary


So true lord,

Maybe that's why Tom Cruise missed out on an Oscar for the fourth of july.

Back to top
 

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
IP Logged
 
sherri
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 746
Melbourne, Australia
Gender: female
Re: Speaking of 'collateral damage' in war ...
Reply #5 - Sep 24th, 2014 at 8:52am
 
Hindsight is always an exact science though, isn't it!!
The allies obviously expected the raid to hurt the Germans in indirect ways.
Whether the cost was worth the effort-if history is still not 100% sure, over 70 years on-then it probably WAS worth trying.

I was reading the comments of a Vietnam vet on another board, on another war topic, and he made an interesting observation. It was that we are too focused these days on the fact a civilian might be hurt, but in his view, war always hurts those in the area, military or not, and we have to accept that.

I personally think (from my father's writings) that the atomic bombs were fully justified and very effective, they put a stop to the war in the Pacific, yet they killed plenty of civilians.

The dam busters-not as clear cut of course.
But maybe it was worth the try.

I remember reading somewhere that at the end of the war, the Germans were only months off developing their own atomic bombs. They would have got there earlier if their efforts & financing hadn't been diverted.
Don't know exactly how true that is, but it is an interesting thing to think about.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Lord Herbert
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 34441
Gender: male
Re: Speaking of 'collateral damage' in war ...
Reply #6 - Sep 24th, 2014 at 9:13am
 
Some good points there, sherri.

The Dam Buster failure was probably due to poor intelligence on the ground. It cost over 1000 allied prisoners of war their lives when the dams were breached.

It says a lot that they never used these bouncing bombs again against the scores of dams across Germany.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Mnemonic
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1530
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Speaking of 'collateral damage' in war ...
Reply #7 - Sep 24th, 2014 at 12:10pm
 
sherri wrote on Sep 24th, 2014 at 8:52am:
The dam busters-not as clear cut of course.
But maybe it was worth the try.


I think the trouble was the British stopped bombing the dams. If they had kept on doing it, it would have left the Germans in the local area without power indefinitely. I reckon the loss of power would have cost the Germans more than whatever it cost the British to successfully bomb a dam. If it hurts the enemy more than it hurts you, it's worth it.

Lord Herbert wrote on Sep 24th, 2014 at 9:13am:
The Dam Buster failure was probably due to poor intelligence on the ground. It cost over 1000 allied prisoners of war their lives when the dams were breached.

It says a lot that they never used these bouncing bombs again against the scores of dams across Germany.


Those Allied POWs were heroes and martyrs! Cheesy

The blood was on the hands of the Germans. They should never have been using them as slave labour anyway.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Lord Herbert
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 34441
Gender: male
Re: Speaking of 'collateral damage' in war ...
Reply #8 - Sep 24th, 2014 at 1:11pm
 
Mnemonic wrote on Sep 24th, 2014 at 12:10pm:
Those Allied POWs were heroes and martyrs! Cheesy

The blood was on the hands of the Germans. They should never have been using them as slave labour anyway.


The BBC coded messages to the PoWs in their German prison camps should have given them a chance to make a break-out when the bombing was imminent.


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print