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ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!! (Read 3925 times)
longweekend58
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #30 - Sep 2nd, 2014 at 10:15am
 
Kytro wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 8:45pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 7:56pm:
it seems we are very close to hearing the greens SUPPORT ISIS.  that should help them lose half their support overnight.


Now you're just being silly, not having the same opinion as main political parties is nothing like supporting ISIS. There is big gap from "we don't think we should be involved" to  "go ISIS!"


have you heard the Greens condemn ISIS and the genocide???  hmmm... no.

really, how hard would that be?
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #31 - Sep 2nd, 2014 at 10:30am
 
Kytro wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 2:08am:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 9:19pm:
Kytro wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 8:45pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 7:56pm:
it seems we are very close to hearing the greens SUPPORT ISIS.  that should help them lose half their support overnight.


Now you're just being silly, not having the same opinion as main political parties is nothing like supporting ISIS. There is big gap from "we don't think we should be involved" to  "go ISIS!"


Not for the Greens..any group who kills people and isn't Jewish or Western, is someone to support..


Except you have no evidence to support the claim, it's wild speculation. If they are supporting ISIS, then it's definitely something that deserves criticism, but making things up just shows your bias is ruling your viewpoint.

There are plenty of things to criticise the greens for (such as their anti-GM stance), but supporting ISIS isn't one of them because it is nonsense. Even if there are green supporters who are self satisfied with ISIS proving them right in their minds, that isn't support from the party.



kytro - I agree entirely

I believe it is a situation we should get involved in.
But that is a different point.
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Dsmithy70
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #32 - Sep 2nd, 2014 at 10:30am
 
I suppose Hugh White will now be labelled a coward

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/intelligence-is-the-key-only-fools-will-rush-in...

Quote:
Intelligence is the key: only fools will rush into Iraq


Our politics works in odd ways when there is a choice to be made about sending armed forces off to fight.  We all say we hate war, but most of us are happy enough to see our politicians commit forces to combat, and we reward them accordingly.  They win praise for strong leadership, when often they are just doing what most of us want them to do, without really thinking about the merits and consequences of their decisions. That, of course, is the very opposite of leadership.


It will not take much political courage for Prime Minister Tony Abbott to decide to send Australian forces to fight in Iraq. The opposition and the commentariat are urging him on, and no one seems very interested in whether there are good reasons to do so.

US President Barack Obama, on the other hand, is showing real leadership in resisting the pressure from all sides to plunge the US, and its willing allies, into wider military operations without clear purpose or prospects of success. He alone seems to have really understood the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan, and to have the discipline  to apply them consistently to successive international crises.  Nothing in Obama's flawed presidency is more impressive than this.

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REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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longweekend58
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #33 - Sep 2nd, 2014 at 12:17pm
 
Dsmithy70 wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 10:30am:
I suppose Hugh White will now be labelled a coward

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/intelligence-is-the-key-only-fools-will-rush-in...

Quote:
Intelligence is the key: only fools will rush into Iraq


Our politics works in odd ways when there is a choice to be made about sending armed forces off to fight.  We all say we hate war, but most of us are happy enough to see our politicians commit forces to combat, and we reward them accordingly.  They win praise for strong leadership, when often they are just doing what most of us want them to do, without really thinking about the merits and consequences of their decisions. That, of course, is the very opposite of leadership.


It will not take much political courage for Prime Minister Tony Abbott to decide to send Australian forces to fight in Iraq. The opposition and the commentariat are urging him on, and no one seems very interested in whether there are good reasons to do so.

US President Barack Obama, on the other hand, is showing real leadership in resisting the pressure from all sides to plunge the US, and its willing allies, into wider military operations without clear purpose or prospects of success. He alone seems to have really understood the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan, and to have the discipline  to apply them consistently to successive international crises.  Nothing in Obama's flawed presidency is more impressive than this.



there is a huge difference.  the writer has a reasoned opinion that he has come to by thought and research.  He is not saying that genocide is okay - as some on here have done. Aussie is just a coward because he cares for absolutely no one.  that is an enormous difference.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Kytro
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #34 - Sep 2nd, 2014 at 7:24pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 10:30am:
kytro - I agree entirely

I believe it is a situation we should get involved in.
But that is a different point.


Maybe. I'm not sure because there seems to be little forward or global planning to limit this sort of issue and interference in one thing and not another seems to be very dependant on US strategic interests.

My requirements for military action is to be the least worst alternative. My problem is that I'm not an expert on geopolitics and I also don't trust governments to act appropriately.
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longweekend58
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #35 - Sep 2nd, 2014 at 7:28pm
 
Kytro wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 7:24pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 10:30am:
kytro - I agree entirely

I believe it is a situation we should get involved in.
But that is a different point.


Maybe. I'm not sure because there seems to be little forward or global planning to limit this sort of issue and interference in one thing and not another seems to be very dependant on US strategic interests.

My requirements for military action is to be the least worst alternative. My problem is that I'm not an expert on geopolitics and I also don't trust governments to act appropriately.


I would love to know what US strategic interests were in noirthern Iraq.  and perhaps if other countries ponied up significant military effort without the US from time to time then these other areas could be addressed.  But in case you hadn't notice, the vast majority of military interventions to prevent slaughter genocide or the like is conducted by the US supported by a few others.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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gizmo_2655
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #36 - Sep 2nd, 2014 at 7:29pm
 
Aussie wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 4:23pm:
Phemanderac wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 4:17pm:
Firstly, I disagree with Wilkie to some degree that it should be debated, the GG has the constitutional authority to deploy our military and navy - without debate. That said, it would seem that the PM has made said decision...

Then there is this from the OP;

"Prime Minister Tony Abbott dismissed speculation it could lead to a ground troop deployment. 'What President Obama has said all along - and what I say likewise - is that we are ruling out combat troops on the ground,' Mr Abbott told the Nine Network."

I am sure that Mr Abbott stated that he was deploying members of the Australian SAS to "personally deliver" the weapons to ensure they get into the right (hmm, that might have been Right I can neither confirm nor deny) hands.

No, I do not have a link for that, but I was certain I heard that comment on the radio recently.

Now, I understand that security aspect of making a decision to hand deliver weapons, and, arguably, that could be backed up fairly easily with sound reasoning, however, it makes comments about troops on the ground a bit dodgy. If members of Australia's SAS (arguably amongst some of the best trained in the business) do not constitute "troops on the ground" then the English language has certainly had some extremely significant changes in the last few weeks....


That is correct.  A serious part of the Kurd military is a mob called PKK ~ 5,000 - 6,000 strong which has been declared as a terrorist group and to supply them is an offence against Australian Law.  The stupid contrivance Abbott is using to (seemingly) avoid that is this business about personal delivery ~ as if some digger is going to know whether the Arab he is handing weapons over to is PKK or not.

'Are you PKK.'

'Nah.'

'Bewdy.  Here ya go.'


And based in Turkey, not Iraq, and defunct as of 2013.
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #37 - Sep 2nd, 2014 at 8:05pm
 
PKK is a proscribed terrorist organisation, and for more, read:

From Crikey, yesterday:

Quote:
Government breaches its own terror laws in returning to Iraq:
     
So, to be clear about what the Australian government is doing in Iraq, we will be providing arms not to the government of that country, but to a breakaway province whose forces include a terrorist group, the PPK, proscribed under our anti-terror legislation since 2005. As that proscription notes:

   
"The precise strength of the PKK is not known; however, it is widely believed the group numbers approximately four to five thousand militants, the majority of whom are based in northern Iraq."

The proscription lists a large number of PKK murders and attacks in Turkey since 2010 alone. Under Part 5.3 of the Criminal Code, it is a crime to provide support to groups like PKK. That is what the Abbott government is now doing, albeit under the fig leaf that the weapons supplied will only be used by the Kurdish regional government forces. In fact, the PKK is central to the fight against Islamic State militants that we have now joined. It's only a matter of days since the US media was lauding the role of the PKK in the battle against IS, with battle-hardened PKK soldiers -- or are they more correctly called terrorists? -- providing critical support for the Kurdish peshmerga both in operating alongside them and operating as special forces units behind IS lines. The president of the Kurdistan Regional Government actually visited a PKK camp recently to acknowledge their efforts.

The idea that somehow we're not helping a proscribed terrorist organisation is thus, given the on-the-ground reality, laughable. And as past experience shows, arming terrorist groups because they are momentarily fighting someone we're opposed to has a horrible way of coming back to hurt us.

That's just one of the many absurdities and contradictions in the government's decision -- without debate -- to rejoin the war in Iraq. The government itself has proposed laws prohibiting people from travelling to Iraq to fight for non-government forces, as it aids a regional government aiming to split away from the government of Iraq. IS, of course, are fighting a government in Syria condemned by Australia and other Western governments (and anyone with any sense of decency) that only months ago we were debating bombing. And the Prime Minister has repeatedly insisted that there would be no Australian combat troops involved. As Crikey noted last week, air strikes and support for air strikes are very likely to mean SAS troops being involved -- something since confirmed. There will be Australian boots on the ground in Iraq, regardless of what the Prime Minister said.


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« Last Edit: Sep 2nd, 2014 at 8:52pm by Aussie »  
 
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buzzanddidj
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #38 - Sep 2nd, 2014 at 8:48pm
 
Quote:
'It is time the Australian parliament was brought into this debate,'
Senator Milne said






I'm afraid that's
DEMOCRACY
,
Ms. Milne
- and too close to
SOCIALISM





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Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'


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Kytro
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #39 - Sep 2nd, 2014 at 9:12pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 10:15am:
have you heard the Greens condemn ISIS and the genocide???  hmmm... no.

really, how hard would that be?


From which you can draw exactly nothing. If I don't state my opinion, you don't get to invent it to suit you.

The greens have spoken in favour of humanitarian aid, but against getting involved another conflict.  Anti-war isn't the same thing as pro-ISIS.
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Kytro
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #40 - Sep 2nd, 2014 at 9:14pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 7:28pm:
Kytro wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 7:24pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 10:30am:
kytro - I agree entirely

I believe it is a situation we should get involved in.
But that is a different point.


Maybe. I'm not sure because there seems to be little forward or global planning to limit this sort of issue and interference in one thing and not another seems to be very dependant on US strategic interests.

My requirements for military action is to be the least worst alternative. My problem is that I'm not an expert on geopolitics and I also don't trust governments to act appropriately.


I would love to know what US strategic interests were in noirthern Iraq.  and perhaps if other countries ponied up significant military effort without the US from time to time then these other areas could be addressed.  But in case you hadn't notice, the vast majority of military interventions to prevent slaughter genocide or the like is conducted by the US supported by a few others.


You can't solve violence with violence.
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #41 - Sep 3rd, 2014 at 6:04am
 
Kytro wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 9:14pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 7:28pm:
Kytro wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 7:24pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 10:30am:
kytro - I agree entirely

I believe it is a situation we should get involved in.
But that is a different point.


Maybe. I'm not sure because there seems to be little forward or global planning to limit this sort of issue and interference in one thing and not another seems to be very dependant on US strategic interests.

My requirements for military action is to be the least worst alternative. My problem is that I'm not an expert on geopolitics and I also don't trust governments to act appropriately.


I would love to know what US strategic interests were in noirthern Iraq.  and perhaps if other countries ponied up significant military effort without the US from time to time then these other areas could be addressed.  But in case you hadn't notice, the vast majority of military interventions to prevent slaughter genocide or the like is conducted by the US supported by a few others.


You can't solve violence with violence.


Sometimes it is unfortunately the only option.
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Scott Morrison DID wipe the floor with Bull Shitten!!! Smiley Smiley Smiley
 
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Kytro
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #42 - Sep 3rd, 2014 at 6:20am
 
Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 3rd, 2014 at 6:04am:
You can't solve violence with violence.

Sometimes it is unfortunately the only option. [/quote]

It still does not solve the problem, but it does make it harder to ignore.

Frankly, I don't see what people expect to achieve from this, or where it is heading. ISIS are terrible, no doubt about this, but so are a series of regimes, why this one, and once ISIS are "defeated" what then? I don't see much hope without fixing the underlying problems, which the Iraqi government isn't capable of.
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longweekend58
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #43 - Sep 3rd, 2014 at 8:15am
 
buzzanddidj wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 8:48pm:
Quote:
'It is time the Australian parliament was brought into this debate,'
Senator Milne said






I'm afraid that's
DEMOCRACY
,
Ms. Milne
- and too close to
SOCIALISM




they don't want democracy. they want DELAYS.  plus the fact that the vast majority of both houses already support it.  A debate would be pointless.



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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: ISIS: Greens well and truly on the outer!!!
Reply #44 - Sep 3rd, 2014 at 8:16am
 
Kytro wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 9:12pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 10:15am:
have you heard the Greens condemn ISIS and the genocide???  hmmm... no.

really, how hard would that be?


From which you can draw exactly nothing. If I don't state my opinion, you don't get to invent it to suit you.

The greens have spoken in favour of humanitarian aid, but against getting involved another conflict.  Anti-war isn't the same thing as pro-ISIS.


their policy position has taken them some time to arrive at.  up until recently they had 'no opinion'.  the greens are incapable of taking decisive steps to solve problems.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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