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Kill apostates - it's in the Koran (Read 11344 times)
freediver
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Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:05pm
 
In Gandalf's recent revelation of being a sort-of-Koran-only-Muslim-when-it-suits-him:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1408074688

he claimed (among other things) that by following the Koran only, one must conclude that there is no compulsion in religion. The only problem with this is the verse that commands Muslims to kill apostates:

http://quran.com/4/88
http://quran.com/4/89
http://quran.com/4/90
http://quran.com/4/91

What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].

They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.


The meaning seems pretty obvious - kill apostates, unless they manage to obtain refuge from people with whom you have a peace treaty, or who could beat you in a war. Gandalf disingenuously tried to portray the later two verses as entirely qualifying the first two, by insisting that it instead meant kill apostates only if they attack you. For example:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 5:46pm:
re. reply #90:

I have disproven this argument before, I suspect it was moses then as well. It is an extremely simple rebuttal, because the evidence is crystal clear:

There are two things here:

1. The verse 4:90:

if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

Clearly a precondition for executing those who are openly hostile to the muslim community is that they must remain hostile, reject peace and do not remove themselves from the community.

2. As if that wasn't clear enough, 4:91 reemphasises the point:

if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them.

The key to understanding these verses is to understand the word "if" - IF they do not withdraw, IF they do not restrain themselves and IF they do not offer you peace...

or in other words - fight those who attack you. Very simple and straight forward - for anyone who reads it with an open mind.




polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 5:26pm:
Soren wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 5:00pm:
Which one of these is a lie?


The bit about it being a license to execute apostates.

Verses 4:88-91 are related to dealing with internal dissidents who are waging open war against the muslim community. The phrase "turn away" translates more correctly to "create emnity", or in the standard Yusuf Ali version, "turn renegade".

Understanding the true meaning is not difficult if you bother to read the following verse:

"...if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."

Perfectly consistent with other Quranic verses instructing muslims to fight only when attacked, and to always make peace when offered it.

What the Quran actually says in relation to apostasy:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
18:29

upon you is only the [duty of] notification, and upon Us is the account.
13:40

There is no compulsion in the religion; right-mindedness has already been evidently (distinct) from misguidance.
2:256

Very clear, no ambiguation at all - yet you won't see Soren ever quoting it.


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:00pm:
ie - fight the disbelievers except for the ones who take refuge with a third party whom you have a treaty with - *OR* the ones who declare their willingness for peace.

Again, why is you lot need to do these mental gymnastics to twist this one passage into "kill all apostates", while you completely ignore the plethora of crystal clear commands to leave the disbelievers (again not distinguishing between those who believed and now disbelieve and those who never believed) in peace - so long as they are peaceful in return?
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #1 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:40pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:29pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 6:43pm:
Crap. 88 and 89 say kill apostates. 90 and 91 say do not pursue them if they escape to a country with which you have a treaty or that could defeat you at war.


It would help if you had some idea about which verses we are talking about FD (ie not 4:88)

4:89 gives permission to fight the disbelievers who initiate hostilities against the muslims.

4:90 specifices *TWO* exceptions: 1. those who take refuge with a third party with whom you have a treaty with, and 2. those " who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people." - note the words "come to you" - putting to bed your little lie just now that only those who flee are to be spared.

4:91 reemphasises the limitations on 4:89:

if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them.

- note again - withdrawal is not a prerequisite - they merely need to offer peace, or even just restrain themselves - and they are free to live amongst the muslims. Reasonable no?

Proof that disbelievers can be part of islamic society:

Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
60:8




Quote:
4:89 gives permission to fight the disbelievers who initiate hostilities against the muslims.


It is a command to kill apostates.

Quote:
4:90 specifices *TWO* exceptions: 1. those who take refuge with a third party with whom you have a treaty with, and 2. those " who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people." - note the words "come to you" - putting to bed your little lie just now that only those who flee are to be spared.


Why would an apostate come to you with his heart strained at the prospect of fighting you or "their own people", rather than say, having his head chopped off for apostasy? The only sensible way to interpret this is as another reference to the people with whom the apostate has managed to obtain refuge, who are now put in a difficult position of protecting the apostate and the rest of their people and fighting the Muslims, or joining the Muslims to slaughter their own people and the apostate. In other words, kill apostates, but not to the point where you have to start a war to get to them. It is a domestic law, not a command to blindly fling yourself against the swords of a strong enemy nation.

Quote:
Proof that disbelievers can be part of islamic society:


I notice you deliberately blurring the lines on apostasy again.
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #2 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 8:03pm
 
FD, I find your efforts at theological argument rather amusing.  You deliberately misconstrue the verses to support your case.  You really seem to have some difficulty parsing Q'ranic verses.  I admit they often aren't easy to understand with their resort to archaic wording and transliteration from Arabic but I can see you're deliberately misreading them as well.   Roll Eyes
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #3 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 8:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:40pm:
I notice you deliberately blurring the lines on apostasy again.


When the Quran instructs muslims to treat disbelievers respectfully and peacefully, not once is a distinction made between those who used to believe and those who never believed.

freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:40pm:
It is a command to kill apostates.


lol - actually it only just occurred to me that there is no mention of them being apostates, nor any reason to believe they are referring to apostates.

4:89 is universally - and by universally I mean even amongst those muslims who advocate death for apostasy - interpreted as referring to the so called "hypocrites" - a particular group of people who set out to harm the muslim community by pretending to convert to islam and sowing discord from within. Or in other words - people who couldn't be apostates, since they never embraced islam in the first place. In fact, 'hypocrites' are mentioned by name in the previous verse (4:88), and both 4:88 and 4:89 makes it abundantly clear these are people who never embraced islam - and are not people who merely change their personal beliefs and otherwise mind their own business. The context is clear.
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #4 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 9:23pm
 
Quote:
When the Quran instructs muslims to treat disbelievers respectfully and peacefully, not once is a distinction made between those who used to believe and those who never believed.


Correct. The distinction is that apostates are to be executed, as per verse 4:89.

Quote:
4:89 is universally - and by universally I mean even amongst those muslims who advocate death for apostasy - interpreted as referring to the so called "hypocrites" - a particular group of people who set out to harm the muslim community by pretending to convert to islam and sowing discord from within.


Do you agree that hypocrits should be executed?

Quote:
Or in other words - people who couldn't be apostates, since they never embraced islam in the first place.


Looks like the traditional meaning of hypocrit to me:

http://islamqa.info/en/12387
Among their characteristics are those which were described by the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him):
“There are four (characteristics), whoever has all of them is a complete hypocrite, and whoever has some of them has some element of hypocrisy, unless he gives it up: when he speaks, he lies; when he makes a treaty, he betrays it; when he makes a promise, he breaks it; when he quarrels, he resorts to insults.”(Narrated by Muslim, 53)
 

Quote:
In fact, 'hypocrites' are mentioned by name in the previous verse (4:88), and both 4:88 and 4:89 makes it abundantly clear these are people who never embraced islam - and are not people who merely change their personal beliefs and otherwise mind their own business. The context is clear.


So what does "fall back [into error and disbelief]" in 88 mean? and in 89: "So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them"?
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #5 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 10:19pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 9:23pm:
So what does "fall back [into error and disbelief]" in 88 mean? and in 89: "So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them"?


Firstly, do you understand the meaning of the term "emigrate"? Probably not.

It is referring to the first emigration - the hijra, when the muslims moved from Mecca to their new home in Medina. "emigrate" in this context is referring to a sort of "rite of passage" - a metaphor for abandoning the old way and embracing islam. So actually, 'emigrate' in this sense is the exact opposite you probably imagine it, and it is proof that the verse is referring to people who never embraced ("emigrated") islam in the first place.

Secondly, "turn away" is not the correct translation. Yusuf Ali (the closest thing to a standard translation) - instead used the term "turn renegades" - or in other words, not merely remove themselves from islam, but to turn hostile against the muslim community. And lets just think this through a little rationally shall we?

1. 4:88 introduces the hypocrites and makes it clear that these are disbelievers who are pretending to be believers in order to sow discord
2. 4:89 continues on saying not to take these people as allies, and then gives permission to muslims to kill them in the event that they turn hostile ("turn renegades").

Now, just pause and think about this FD - *IF* these verses were really talking about apostates, it would need to refer to people who previously believed, and then decided to disbelieve - agreed?

and yet the whole time, from 4:88 right through to 4:91, it only ever refers to people who disbelieved from the very beginning. Explain to me, if you can FD, how a people specifically described as hypocrites - who 4:88 explains had been led astray, and whom would never find a way to God, how can they then suddenly "turn away" from God?

This is how FD's version of 4:88-4:91 goes:

1. there are hypocrites amongst you, these people have been led astray, and will never find the right path (4:88)
2. These people wish you to join them in disbelief, so don't make allies with them
3. *HOWEVER* if these people decide to turn to disbelief - kill them all.

make sense to you?

Obviously "turn away" has a different meaning. And a rational reading of the verses can only lead one to make the following interpretation about 4:88-4:91:

1. warning muslims that there are hypocrites amongst them, who wish to lead them to disbelief - and not to take them as guardians
2. Nevertheless, until they actually initiate hostilities, they must be free to live amongst them
3. Once they initiate hostilities - kill them where they can be found
4. However as soon as they (the ones who initiated hostilities) sue for peace, or restrain themselves (or find refuge with a 3rd party who the muslims have a treaty with), then the killing must stop.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #6 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 11:20pm
 
Freediver, you do not have a clue.

The verses you have quoted refer to the Hypocrites. There other verses that were revealed in relation to the same group. The Quran in other parts explains that the hypocrites are not openly apostates. They are a people who pretend to be Muslims.

Quote:
And of mankind, there are some (Hypocrites) who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day" while in fact they believe not.

They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!

In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment (in Hell) is theirs because they used to tell lies.

And when it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "We are only peacemakers."

Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.

And when it is said to them (Hypocrites): "Believe as the people  have believed," they say: "Shall we believe as the fools have believed?" Verily, they are the fools, but they know not.

And when they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe," but when they are alone with their devils (pagans, other Hypocrites, etc.), they say: "Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking."...

al-Baqarah 8-20



The verses you quoted, which were revealed later, were not made in reference to apostates, but rather in regards to a small group of renegade Muslims who joined with a group of pagans that was attacking the Muslims.

The Muslims were wondering whether they should kill a Muslim who was with an attacking enemy.

The Quran gives them the answer that while they are with the attacking enemy then they could fight those Muslims who were with the enemy. If those Muslims either returned in good will, or took shelter with a neutral or aligned party then they would be spared.

The verses you quoted even said that if they are peaceful then they shouldn't be killed.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:05pm:
[i]What is [the matter] with you two groups [of opinions] concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [to join with the pagans]...

...So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them...

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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #7 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:12am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 10:19pm:

1. 4:88 introduces the hypocrites and makes it clear that these are disbelievers who are pretending to be believers in order to sow discord




I don't read your "pretending to be believers in order to sow discord" attribution at all, into 4:88

Where is the 'in order to sow discord', in the words of 4:88 ?


004.088
YUSUFALI: Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.

PICKTHAL: What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.

SHAKIR: What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.


4:88        Is stating that Allah himself has rejected these persons who are/were moslems, BUT, also that Allah has led them into error, of which they are guilty.

After all, they were Allah's slaves.

And what evil deeds did Allah cause them [as his slaves] to commit ?

It is not stated - except that they are those 'whom Allah has caused to err'.


The phrase;

"...because of what they earned?"

Allah is stating that these men have earned death [at the hands of moslems], because Allah has led them into error.




It is as Allah declares;

"For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way."


So kill them.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #8 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:24am
 
The Koran is most likely just like the Bible -

full of contradictions.

One phrase will tell you to kill someone & the next will tell you to be kind to them.

Why does any sane person even bother to read such nonsense?
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #9 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:36am
 
Team Murdoch wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 11:20pm:

The verses you quoted, which were revealed later, were not made in reference to apostates, but rather in regards to a small group of renegade Muslims who joined with a group of pagans that was attacking the Muslims.




What rubbish!!!!

What absolute piffle!






Team Murdoch,

Your argument is irrational, it is illogical.

Your argument does not make any sense, at all!

I will demonstrate;

QUESTION;
What moslem.....

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

.....would join himself to a group of pagans, in order to attack,    ......moslems ?




Quote:

Ishaq:231 - "Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."


Google


Moslems together, supporting one another.

Its the one brotherhood.

Innit.





Team Murdoch,

Why don't you just stop lying, and stop trying to create confusion, about the status of the apostate within ISLAM.

The apostate is a dead parrot!

Killed by fellow moslems.


"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
- DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260






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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #10 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:37am
 
Bobby. wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:24am:
The Koran is most likely just like the Bible -

full of contradictions.

One phrase will tell you to kill someone & the next will tell you to be kind to them.

Why does any sane person even bother to read such nonsense?




Oh, go away.         Cheesy


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #11 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 10:47am
 
Bobby. wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:24am:
The Koran is most likely just like the Bible -

full of contradictions.

One phrase will tell you to kill someone & the next will tell you to be kind to them.

Why does any sane person even bother to read such nonsense?


Good question.  Perhaps they seek answers to questions they have only half formed in their mind?

I must say though, I've never seen such fervent religious believers as I have in Yadda, Freediver, Soren and Moses.  They'd fit right in down the local Mosque quite well!  They seem to be absolutely sure they know everything there is to know about Islam!  More than most Muslims I know... Grin Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #12 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 5:50pm
 
Quote:
So actually, 'emigrate' in this sense is the exact opposite you probably imagine it


It is fairly obvious from the context that it means becoming a proper Muslim. It is the references to  falling back into disbelief and turning away that make me think ti is about apostasy.

Quote:
Secondly, "turn away" is not the correct translation.


The first 4 translations that come in in google are either turn away or turn back. Does it not seem odd to you that Muslims would mistranslate the justification for killing people?

Quote:
Now, just pause and think about this FD - *IF* these verses were really talking about apostates, it would need to refer to people who previously believed, and then decided to disbelieve - agreed?


That is what it says. The reference to apostasy comes immediately after the reference to becoming proper Muslims. My understanding:

Do not befriend hypocrits until they become proper Muslims. If they reject Islam, hunt them down and kill them, but practice restraint where hunting them down might lead to an international incident.

Quote:
The verses you quoted even said that if they are peaceful then they shouldn't be killed.


TM, see the second post in this thread. That can only be interpreted as a reference to the people with whom they seek refuge. You can only interpret it your way by leaving out the first half of that verse.
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #13 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 7:23pm
 
Team Murdoch wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 11:20pm:
Freediver, you do not have a clue.

The verses you have quoted refer to the Hypocrites. There other verses that were revealed in relation to the same group. The Quran in other parts explains that the hypocrites are not openly apostates. They are a people who pretend to be Muslims.

Quote:
And of mankind, there are some (Hypocrites) who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day" while in fact they believe not.

They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!

In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment (in Hell) is theirs because they used to tell lies.

And when it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "We are only peacemakers."

Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.

And when it is said to them (Hypocrites): "Believe as the people  have believed," they say: "Shall we believe as the fools have believed?" Verily, they are the fools, but they know not.

And when they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe," but when they are alone with their devils (pagans, other Hypocrites, etc.), they say: "Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking."...

al-Baqarah 8-20



The verses you quoted, which were revealed later, were not made in reference to apostates, but rather in regards to a small group of renegade Muslims who joined with a group of pagans that was attacking the Muslims.

The Muslims were wondering whether they should kill a Muslim who was with an attacking enemy.

The Quran gives them the answer that while they are with the attacking enemy then they could fight those Muslims who were with the enemy. If those Muslims either returned in good will, or took shelter with a neutral or aligned party then they would be spared.

The verses you quoted even said that if they are peaceful then they shouldn't be killed.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 7:05pm:
[i]What is [the matter] with you two groups [of opinions] concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [to join with the pagans]...

...So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them...



Wrong! Wrong! Phuking Wrong! the holy qur'an is the IMMUTABLE word from the god of the muslims. It is not open to interpretation. The qur'an could be opened on any particular page and it would make perfect sense. That is the meaning of needing no interpretation. For instance when the qur'an says to 'beat your wife' it doesn't say how much force you can use. You can tap the bitch lightly or you can use a baseball bat. There is no distinction.

Stop interpreting the holy qur'an.
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Re: Kill apostates - it's in the Koran
Reply #14 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 7:37pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:37am:
Bobby. wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 12:24am:
The Koran is most likely just like the Bible -

full of contradictions.

One phrase will tell you to kill someone & the next will tell you to be kind to them.

Why does any sane person even bother to read such nonsense?




Oh, go away.         Cheesy


Can't you see that we are having fun here!          Angry




forgiven

namaste
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