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Crisis, what crisis (Read 2849 times)
John S
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Crisis, what crisis
Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:15pm
 
Crisis, what crisis, asks Coalition, spinning as the budget wheels come off
Yes, the appropriations bills have passed, but the lack of urgency stands in stark contrast to the rhetoric up until now


...
Joe Hockey: ‘we are now dealing with some of the structural challenges, and we are working on the structural responses’. Photograph: Nikki Short/AAPImage



That screeching sound is the government’s budget rhetoric doing a u-turn.

Having spent the last three months insisting the budget emergency meant there would be dire consequences if the budget did not pass, it appears the government is now facing the reality that key budget policies may indeed not pass – despite its best negotiating efforts over the winter break.

Lest anyone then try to assert that by the government’s own arguments we were facing some kind of emergency or crisis, the government has dramatically shifted its rhetoric, insisting there is in fact no crisis or emergency at all.

“Most of the budget has passed through the parliament, but we are now dealing with some of the structural challenges, and we are working on the structural responses,” says treasurer Joe Hockey.

“A number of the measures that are the subject of the most intensive post-budget debate are not due to take effect for some time … there is ample time to keep engaging with the Senate crossbenchers.” says finance minister Mathias Cormann.

“No government in recent political history had passed all of its budget measures through both houses of parliament by the end of August.”

In economic terms, what the treasurer and finance ministers are saying is true. We won’t face any sort of crisis if the budget does not pass straight away. But the lack of urgency does stand in stark contrast to what the government has been saying up until the past few days.

Back in May, the prime minister was saying,
“we cannot go on as a nation in a fool’s paradise thinking that we can pay our mortgage on the credit card. We just can’t continue to do this. This government is determined to start the clean-up as quickly as possible and that’s what this budget was all about”.


Or
“everyone in this room who has ever had a mortgage, who has ever had a credit card, knows that eventually if you let it get out of control you don’t run the debt – the debt runs you. And that’s the problem. That’s the budget emergency that has been confronting our country. Labor was incapable of facing up to it – the Coalition, as before, will once more rise to the challenge of addressing the nation’s finances.”

The likely fate of the budget in the Senate was so alarming the government was warning of a “Queensland style austerity budget” or finding the same savings in ways that did not need to be legislated.

As independent senator Nick Xenophon said “this message is getting very confused … a few weeks ago we were led to believe the budget was on life support, now we find out it’s kicking back on a banana lounge on Hayman Island.”

Also not really passing muster is the new argument that there is no reason to worry because the budget is already two thirds through the Senate, given that the appropriations bills – which have passed – contained 400 decisions with a net improvement to the bottom line of nearly $40bn over the next four years.

If the appropriations bills had been blocked there really would have been a crisis, but their passage is not usually cause for a government to be giving itself high-fives.

The truth is, as it has always been, that the budget does need “repair” over the medium term. Many of the particular choices and decisions taken by the Abbott government to try to repair it are likely to be blocked in the Senate. The government’s attempts to bully those measures through with claims of an immediate crisis did not work and its attempts to negotiate them through over the winter break appear to have made only minimal headway.

The new strategy appears to be to claim that having much of its program blocked in the Senate doesn’t immediately matter. Crisis, what crisis?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/20/crisis-what-crisis-asks-coalition-s...



Looks like Abbott was lying about the budget emergency along.
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perceptions_now
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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #1 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:20pm
 
Oh, there is a crisis or there will be!
And, Yes action is or more to the point, was required.
However, the actions that were required should have been taken over the last 30-40 years & the required actions should have been actioned Globally!
Now, the actions are entirely too late, the actions are unbalanced & the actions will become part of the Problem/s, not part of the solution/s!
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Swagman
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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #2 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:29pm
 
John S wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
Looks like Abbott was lying about the budget emergency along


Looks like he wasn't..... Huh


...

...

For all the budget crisis deniers,,,,,,

Here it is, easily explained in pictures.   Cheesy
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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #3 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:45pm
 
Swagman wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:29pm:
John S wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
Looks like Abbott was lying about the budget emergency along


Looks like he wasn't..... Huh


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/timbo2530/aaaa2e2b-0278-46c0-8f68-7d9feb37...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/timbo2530/fd8c607b-6a54-4785-8302-936675e9...

For all the budget crisis deniers,,,,,,

Here it is, easily explained in pictures.   Cheesy


They've seen that before - you'll have to dumb it down even further for the deniers...
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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #4 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:02pm
 
Swagman wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:29pm:
John S wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
Looks like Abbott was lying about the budget emergency along


Looks like he wasn't..... Huh

For all the budget crisis deniers,,,,,,

Here it is, easily explained in pictures.   Cheesy


Part of what makes something a crisis is the immediacy of action required, even if the consequences of such action is unclear.

Are you saying that taking action after the next election is too late to fix the problems, and that it must be done right now to avert disaster? If not then it's a problem, not a disaster.

Thought the point of this thread was the government shift away from calling it a disaster. They have cut income, but very little spending, how has this fixed anything?


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perceptions_now
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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #5 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:03pm
 
Swagman wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:29pm:
John S wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
Looks like Abbott was lying about the budget emergency along


Looks like he wasn't..... Huh


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/timbo2530/aaaa2e2b-0278-46c0-8f68-7d9feb37...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/timbo2530/fd8c607b-6a54-4785-8302-936675e9...

For all the budget crisis deniers,,,,,,

Here it is, easily explained in pictures.   Cheesy

...

...

Of course, the Primary reason/s for the Worker to Dependents rate going from 7/1 to 2.7/1, is the Aging of our society & the basically predictable ramifications arising from that issue, such as rising unemployment!

And, did Labor or Liberal plan for & take all necessary action/s for these outcomes?

Hell no!
They just played the usual Political games, benefiting themselves, those who supported them & TPTB!
They sat on their hands & with the aid of HOPIUM, they thought the cavalry would ride over the hill, at the last moment, to their rescue!
Not ours, mind, But theirs and we, well we let them! 

Of course, there were a few other major factors involved in what is happening & will happen, like -
1) Energy - Supply Shortages & Price escalation!
2) Climate Change - Forcing Future Food & Water Supply shortages!

And what did Liberal & Labor do?
Well again, effectively nothing!

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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #6 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:14pm
 
Swagman wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:29pm:
John S wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
Looks like Abbott was lying about the budget emergency along


Looks like he wasn't..... Huh


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/timbo2530/aaaa2e2b-0278-46c0-8f68-7d9feb37...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/timbo2530/fd8c607b-6a54-4785-8302-936675e9...

For all the budget crisis deniers,,,,,,

Here it is, easily explained in pictures.   Cheesy

1970s? Beginning of the welfare state?  Grin Grin

The first age pensions were legislated in 1909.

Of course, if Swag had his way, the elderly would all be cast out into the snow to beg for scraps and mercy, while the workers are working for tuppence -ha'penny a week. And he would put the kids to work as well, can't have 8-year-olds being dependent either, let the kiddie bludgers pay their own way through hard work with the government confiscating everything they earn. After all, universal free education for children was item 10 in the Communist Manifesto, and anything Marx advocated is to be opposed no matter how good the idea actually is....
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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #7 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:24pm
 
Kytro wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:02pm:
Are you saying that taking action after the next election is too late to fix the problems, and that it must be done right now to avert disaster? If not then it's a problem, not a disaster


Demographics was one of the main reasons behind the campaign to introduce the GST.

Keating was well aware of population demographics and the super guarantee was born.  Mind you this was just a quasi pay rise / tax on business which was much more palatable to the ochlocrats.

A declining tax-payer to tax-dependent ratio meant that a broad based regressive tax was inevitable in order to try and maintain the same level of social security expenditures.

Dr John Hewson  knew this just couldn't explain it the dumb-arse.  20 years with 50% additional GST revenues would have made a humungous difference to today's budget.  Hundred's of billions of dollars.  Sad

If you look at govt expenditure it almost always goes up.  The problem (or disaster) is that revenues will decline (not as many tax payers) and expenditures will increase.  Health costs are going to skyrocket as baby boomers retire and the older people are the ones that run up the lion's share of bills.
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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #8 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:42pm
 
Bam wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:14pm:
1970s? Beginning of the welfare state?   The first age pensions were legislated in 1909.


It's a reference to the abolishment of uni fees and the establishment of medibank in the 70s.

Bam wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:14pm:
Of course, if Swag had his way, the elderly would all be cast out into the snow to beg for scraps and mercy, while the workers are working for tuppence -ha'penny a week. And he would put the kids to work as well, can't have 8-year-olds being dependent either, let the kiddie bludgers pay their own way through hard work with the government confiscating everything they earn


Where have I ever said that?

Bam wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:14pm:
After all, universal free education for children was item 10 in the Communist Manifesto, and anything Marx advocated is to be opposed no matter how good the idea actually is....


Free everything would be grand but who is going to pay for it?

If everyone gets everything for free who is going to work to produce anything?

Huh


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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #9 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:56pm
 
Swagman wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:24pm:
Demographics was one of the main reasons behind the campaign to introduce the GST.

Keating was well aware of population demographics and the super guarantee was born.  Mind you this was just a quasi pay rise / tax on business which was much more palatable to the ochlocrats.

A declining tax-payer to tax-dependent ratio meant that a broad based regressive tax was inevitable in order to try and maintain the same level of social security expenditures.

Dr John Hewson  knew this just couldn't explain it the dumb-arse.  20 years with 50% additional GST revenues would have made a humungous difference to today's budget.  Hundred's of billions of dollars.  Sad

If you look at govt expenditure it almost always goes up.  The problem (or disaster) is that revenues will decline (not as many tax payers) and expenditures will increase.  Health costs are going to skyrocket as baby boomers retire and the older people are the ones that run up the lion's share of bills.


I'm not arguing that the ageing population isn't an issue that must be dealt with or if it is ignored that it couldn't reach a point of crisis, I am arguing that point is not now. It's not "crunch time" so to speak.

The other point of contention I have is this implication that the budget that the Abbot government has proposed actually addresses the problems at hand in a significant manner.

Two examples:

Medicare Co-Payment, claims that it will make Medicare more sustainable.

No figures presented on how many people use the GP when it isn't necessary. No report into the impact of deterring necessary visits vs money saved. Basically no reason to assume this will actually achieve the stated aim. It's really bad idea to base a policy on a bunch of unproven assumptions.

Work for the Dole

Studies show that it produces worse, not better outcomes. It costs money to administer an provides nothing valuable in return. Based on the flawed assumption that if people really wanted work they could find it.

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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #10 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 6:39pm
 
Get rid of welfare for the rich such as negative gearing, private health insurance subsidies, superannuation tax breaks for the super wealthy and get rid of all taxpayer handouts for the big mining companies.
Get rid of the generous superannuation packages for public servants and pollies.

After that..then get stuck into the poor, the sick and the elderly.
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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #11 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 7:03pm
 
Swagman wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:42pm:
Bam wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:14pm:
1970s? Beginning of the welfare state?   The first age pensions were legislated in 1909.


It's a reference to the abolishment of uni fees and the establishment of medibank in the 70s.

Bam wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:14pm:
Of course, if Swag had his way, the elderly would all be cast out into the snow to beg for scraps and mercy, while the workers are working for tuppence -ha'penny a week. And he would put the kids to work as well, can't have 8-year-olds being dependent either, let the kiddie bludgers pay their own way through hard work with the government confiscating everything they earn


Where have I ever said that?

Bam wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:14pm:
After all, universal free education for children was item 10 in the Communist Manifesto, and anything Marx advocated is to be opposed no matter how good the idea actually is....


Free everything would be grand but who is going to pay for it?

If everyone gets everything for free who is going to work to produce anything?

Huh




It isn't going to be free - you'd pay for it via taxes under the Marx model...
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Scott Morrison DID wipe the floor with Bull Shitten!!! Smiley Smiley Smiley
 
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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #12 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 9:32pm
 
Swagman wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:24pm:
Kytro wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 5:02pm:
Are you saying that taking action after the next election is too late to fix the problems, and that it must be done right now to avert disaster? If not then it's a problem, not a disaster


Demographics was one of the main reasons behind the campaign to introduce the GST.

Keating was well aware of population demographics and the super guarantee was born.  Mind you this was just a quasi pay rise / tax on business which was much more palatable to the ochlocrats.

A declining tax-payer to tax-dependent ratio meant that a broad based regressive tax was inevitable in order to try and maintain the same level of social security expenditures.

Dr John Hewson  knew this just couldn't explain it the dumb-arse.  20 years with 50% additional GST revenues would have made a humungous difference to today's budget.  Hundred's of billions of dollars.  Sad

If you look at govt expenditure it almost always goes up.  The problem (or disaster) is that revenues will decline (not as many tax payers) and expenditures will increase.  Health costs are going to skyrocket as baby boomers retire and the older people are the ones that run up the lion's share of bills.


Not quite swags. At the time of introduction, company tax was reduced from 48% to 39%.

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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #13 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 10:46pm
 
Swagman wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:29pm:
John S wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
Looks like Abbott was lying about the budget emergency along


Looks like he wasn't..... Huh


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/timbo2530/aaaa2e2b-0278-46c0-8f68-7d9feb37...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/timbo2530/fd8c607b-6a54-4785-8302-936675e9...

For all the budget crisis deniers,,,,,,

Here it is, easily explained in pictures.   Cheesy


So - your answer to this is to flog those who have been forcibly removed from the tax payer situation to death and leave only the taxpayers?  OK...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: Crisis, what crisis
Reply #14 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 10:55pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 3:20pm:
Oh, there is a crisis or there will be!
And, Yes action is or more to the point, was required.
However, the actions that were required should have been taken over the last 30-40 years & the required actions should have been actioned Globally!
Now, the actions are entirely too late, the actions are unbalanced & the actions will become part of the Problem/s, not part of the solution/s!


Now there's a response that warrants a round of applause!

We need to ditch the whole lot in Canberra and State capitals - resume our ownership of those things that are the necessities of life - divest ourselves of international companies fracking for their own benefit - resume control over our own trading of our own resources - set our own standards that safeguard our own people in our 'world economy' dealings - organise out tax system so that it is genuinely equitable for all and not some - control our politicians and their grasping at the trough - and guarantee, through investment from within, that Australia will hold the whip hand in negotiating sale of our own things.

I say that off the top of my head - and I'm spoilt - I just came from the 30th anniversary of MY theatre, which was never expected to survive and nearly went under - and it was a co-operative effort from start to finish.

When ordinary people get together, they can achieve wonders - and that is not 'communism' or anything else - just a shuffling off of the dead weight of those who consider themselves fit and suited and entitled to rule....

I am proud to be an Original shareholder in a theatre now internationally renowned.... and which has produced a number of stars...

We can do the same here......
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
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