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Islam and equality (Read 26200 times)
freediver
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Islam and equality
Mar 23rd, 2014 at 10:11am
 
The spin:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 1st, 2012 at 10:14pm:
Equality before the law - presumably referring to muslims compared to non-muslims? They are not equal before sharia law - because for most things sharia does not apply for non-muslims. Non-muslims do not enjoy an equal legal status as muslims (under a sharia system). This can mean, for example, that non-muslims are allowed to drink alcohol, avoid military service, and not be subject to many of the sharia penal code.


polite_gandalf wrote on May 4th, 2013 at 5:08pm:
freediver wrote on May 4th, 2013 at 4:15pm:
on integrating muslim into mainstream British society:
[quote]The Muslim Council of Britain's founding ethos is to seek the common good. In our Islamic traditions and beliefs, we believe that it is every Muslims' duty to seek common cause with fellow Britons to advance our collective wellbeing.

Muslims in Britain are British citizens with an Islamic heritage and the MCB encourages British Muslims to make full use of their rights and responsibilities to further and advance equality for all communities, tolerance of differences and a staunch defence of our liberal democratic traditions and enviable civil liberties.

The Muslim Council of Britain does not seek special rights or privileges for British Muslims. Its disproportionate attention to British Muslims is a result of the underprivileged status of the community in terms of inequality and injustice. The MCB seeks to mainstream British Muslims by removing barriers to integration

http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=992&Itemid=66...

Anything else FD? I hope you have something better than that clown.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 9:25pm:
Read the covenant - they had freedom and equality.


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 5:28pm:
In the case of rape, the quran gives the generalised proscription for the respect and equality of women. The specific outlawing of rape is found in the hadith of Abu Dawud Book 38, Number 4366:


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 3:05am:
yes its very confusing.

Rape - as in forcing a woman into sex against her will - is specifically forbidden in the Dawoud hadith I quoted. This is a general proscription - backed up by the numerous references in the quran (as well as hadith) to treat women with equality and respect. Therefore, saying rape is permitted is obviously contradictory. Therefore to have any shred of credibility, such a claim would have to be supported by an "exception to the rule" - as it were - in islamic doctrine. No such exception exists, therefore the default position that ALL rape is strictly forbidden stands.


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 9:29pm:
3. Is it more likely that inmates are drawn to islam because of Muhammad's "example" of violence and mayhem, or because they are overwhelmingly members of an underprivileged, lower socio-economic class, and are drawn to Muhammad's socialist message of standing up for the downtrodden and poor? Food for thought.


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 10:13pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 9:39pm:
Muhammed was the one making people poor and treading all over them. He created a caste system with Muslims on top, Christians and Jews in the middle, and Pagans on the bottom (usually six feet under). What draws the inmates is not equality, but the idea of being on top, even if it is all in their head. Islam has nothing to do with equality. It is a cult of superiority, which worked fine when the Muslims were actually on top, but has been disastrous for them ever since (except of course when it comes to recruiting people in jail).


Yes we all know your little meme FD. Yet the evidence Wally posted indicates that conversion amongst US inmates has nothing to do with that.
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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #1 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 10:13am
 
The reality:

Arab society at Muhammed's time was based on genuine equality. Jews, Christians and Pagans lived together and traded with each other on equal terms. There was a lot of fighting, and some of them thought it would be a good idea to let Muhammed adjudicate over them in Medina, as he was independent of the competing tribes. Muhammed's solution was to abandon all pretense of equality. He created a caste system, with Muslims on top, Jews and Christians next, and Pagans at the bottom. Muhammed seized absolute control of Medina by expelling and the executing the three powerful tribes of Jews, who were a political threat to him because theJews were reluctant to convert to Islam, despite Muhamed's open threats to them. These Jews were not judged as equal's but became subject to Muhammed's arbitrary ruling based on self-interest. Pagan's who refused not convert were also treated badly. Muhammed destroyed entire villages for the crime of paganism. Muhammed decreed that Paganism would be wiped out in much of Arabia. He and his immediate successors achieved this, with a combination of forced mass migrations and conversions under various forms of duress.

Non-Muslims are not merely "not subject" to Shariah law, they have very little recourse in it. Gandalf's spin conveniently ignores the problem of what happens when a Muslim and non-Muslim require a conflict to be resolved by the law. In theory and in reality, both parties are subject to Shariah law in this case. Under Islamic law non-Muslims are either not allowed to testify, or their testimony is automatically discounted on the grounds that non-Muslims are inherently untrustworthy. Malaysia, who Gandalf often holds up as a "progressive" Islamic state, still maintains many of these discriminatory provisions. Although Muhammed was initially invited to rule over competing tribes as equals, the legal system he created simply left non-Muslims to fend for themselves, and discriminated against them when they came into conflict with Muslims.

Muhammed and his successors instituted many laws that openly discriminated against non-Muslims, requiring them by law to to adopt an inferior social position. Gandalf cynically spun this as "excusing" them from military service and granting them more rights than Muslims (drinking alcohol). In fact, non-Muslims were barred from all public office, and explicitly forbidden from any role in government, which was exclusively the domain of religious leaders. In exchange for this "benefit" they were charged a special tax. The history of the Islamic empire is full of pernicious laws restricting the religious, social and economic life of non-Muslims.

The spin that Islam instituted equality for women is particularly offensive. Islam cemented the low status of Arabian women for much of the world for a millennium. Muhammed tried to ban wife beating for example, then changed his mind after 'consulting with Allah' (and because the men complained that the women got all uppity). Rape, sexual slavery and pedophilia were common at the time. Muhammed only restricted these activities to the extent he restricted sex - to within the confines of marriage and slavery. That is, you can only have sex with 'that which your right hand possesses', and their consent in the matter never entered into the equation. Muslims try to counter this with vague notions that Muhammed ordered people to "be respectful" to women, yet there are examples of women being beaten in front of Muhammed. Other than his aborted attempt to ban wife beating, he never did anything about this. Muslims also insist that Muhammed placed "restrictions" on wife beating, but there is no basis for this in any of Muhammed's rulings, just as there is no basis for age of consent laws in anything Muhammed ever said.

That Muslims present prison inmates with the 'social justice' aspect of Islam is just another example of how Muslims will say whatever they can get away with to promote Islam. Muhammed executed 800 POWs in one day. Muslims try to take this out of the context of war, yet they were also executed without trial for a 'crime' that many of them were not directly involved with. There are many more examples of collective punishment, torture, forced mass migration etc, starting with Muhammed himself. How Muslims keep a straight face while telling modern prison inmates that Islam is all about social justice is anyone's guess. Muhammed created an underprivileged, lower socioeconomic class where there was none before.
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« Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2014 at 10:18am by freediver »  

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #2 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 10:51am
 
Ladies and gentlemen, Yadda has serious competition.
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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #3 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 11:04am
 
I don't know why FD multi quotes posts from other threads then uses the quotes in a new thread.

Can't FD just answer the questions in the threads there in.
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« Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2014 at 11:13am by wally1 »  
 
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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #4 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 10:57pm
 
freediver wrote on May 4th, 2013 at 4:15pm:
on integrating muslim into mainstream British society:
[quote]The Muslim Council of Britain's founding ethos is to seek the common good. In our Islamic traditions and beliefs, we believe that it is every Muslims' duty to seek common cause with fellow Britons to advance our collective wellbeing.

Muslims in Britain are British citizens with an Islamic heritage and the MCB encourages British Muslims to make full use of their rights and responsibilities to further and advance equality for all communities, tolerance of differences and a staunch defence of our liberal democratic traditions and enviable civil liberties.


So their effort to "advance equality" is why Muhammad's followers had sharia ensconced into British law? So that girls could only receive 1/2 the inheritance that their brothers do.
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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #5 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 11:08pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 3:05am:
yes its very confusing.

Rape - as in forcing a woman into sex against her will - is specifically forbidden in the Dawoud hadith I quoted. This is a general proscription - backed up by the numerous references in the quran (as well as hadith) to treat women with equality and respect. Therefore, saying rape is permitted is obviously contradictory. Therefore to have any shred of credibility, such a claim would have to be supported by an "exception to the rule" - as it were - in islamic doctrine. No such exception exists, therefore the default position that ALL rape is strictly forbidden stands.


As always it's hard to tell if Gand is just a dupe or is the one willfully engaging in dissimulation. It's not about an "exception to the rule", but about Islam itself. The dar al Salaam VS the dar al Harb. The "us against them" of Muhammadanism.

Rape of Muslims by Muslims may be prohibited, depending on circumstances (however "Maldives president vetoes marital rape bill as 'un-Islamic'").

Rape of non-Muslims by Muslims cannot be prohibited because Muhammad and his boys engaged in it.

Bukhari Book #59, Hadith #459 Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus.

They even pressed the vanquished into service, by pimping them out as prostitutes.

Sura 24:33:...But force not your maids to prostitution
when
they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),    

So when they don't desire chastity, pimp them out and make a gain. Perhaps they want to share in that gain or maybe just get some distance from their filthy captor for a little while.
But then even if you compel them, Allah is forgiving!
Pretty convenient god for an army of imperialistic, conquering, female prisoner violating, cutthroat, thieves.
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« Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2014 at 11:31pm by Pete Waldo »  

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #6 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 11:19pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 9:29pm:
3. Is it more likely that inmates are drawn to islam because of Muhammad's "example" of violence and mayhem, or because they are overwhelmingly members of an underprivileged, lower socio-economic class, and are drawn to Muhammad's socialist message of standing up for the downtrodden and poor? Food for thought.


The reason inmates are drawn to Islam, as so many of Muhammad's followers in the 3rd world, is they are low IQ sheeple suffering in an information vacuum and from an incapacity for critical thought.

How could a reasonable person with access to information get duped into an anti-Gospel, antichrist, anti-religion, that is centered around a language that did not exist before the Christian era, and a town that did not exist before the 4th century AD?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196

Though I don't doubt that many inmates are intimidated into following Muhammad, by other inmates, for "protection". Just as throughout the rest of 1400 years of Islamic history.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islamic_slavery_dhimmitude.htm#dhimmitude
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« Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2014 at 11:40pm by Pete Waldo »  

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #7 - Mar 25th, 2014 at 12:42pm
 
wally1 wrote on Mar 23rd, 2014 at 11:04am:
I don't know why FD multi quotes posts from other threads then uses the quotes in a new thread.

Can't FD just answer the questions in the threads there in.


bingo.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #8 - Mar 25th, 2014 at 12:59pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 25th, 2014 at 12:42pm:
wally1 wrote on Mar 23rd, 2014 at 11:04am:
I don't know why FD multi quotes posts from other threads then uses the quotes in a new thread.

Can't FD just answer the questions in the threads there in.


bingo.


True, but FD likes to summarize other people's posts in his own words. You know, to provide a new slant on them.

It's about freedom, you see.
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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #9 - Mar 25th, 2014 at 1:10pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 23rd, 2014 at 10:51am:

Ladies and gentlemen, Yadda has serious competition.





Yadda paraphrases Karnal;

More and more people are becoming aware of what moslems and the moslem communities, who are living within non-moslem host countries are 'about'.

More and more people are becoming aware of the blatant deception and the blatant lies [of moslems], and of the barbarity, inequity, and the threats, and the 'justified' violence which is freely promulgated by moslems [among themselves] and within the moslem communities, who are living within non-moslem host countries.






Please watch this YT...
Muslims being deceptive Islam EX-Muslims

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZx8cNSC9O0



Please watch this YT...
ISLAM - THREE THINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OzxiHfWvBGw








BLATANT LIES.....

Quote:

A body representing British 'mainstream' moslems, The Muslim Council of Britain, declares on its website, that ISLAM is a philosophy which condemns extremism and violence....


Quote:

Rejecting Terror
Thursday, 11 April 2013

Muslims everywhere consider all acts of terrorism that aims to murder and maim innocent human beings utterly reprehensible and abhorrent. There is no theological basis whatsoever for such acts in our faith. The very meaning of the word 'Islam' is peace. It rejects terror and promotes peace and harmony.




http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2307:mcbnewst...
http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-656







ISLAMIC law....

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."





FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260




"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #10 - Mar 25th, 2014 at 1:21pm
 
Pete Waldo wrote on Mar 23rd, 2014 at 11:08pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 3:05am:
yes its very confusing.

Rape - as in forcing a woman into sex against her will - is specifically forbidden in the Dawoud hadith I quoted. This is a general proscription - backed up by the numerous references in the quran (as well as hadith) to treat women with equality and respect. Therefore, saying rape is permitted is obviously contradictory. Therefore to have any shred of credibility, such a claim would have to be supported by an "exception to the rule" - as it were - in islamic doctrine. No such exception exists, therefore the default position that ALL rape is strictly forbidden stands.



As always it's hard to tell if Gand is just a dupe or is the one willfully engaging in dissimulation.....




Then gandalf can consider himself to be a successful, 'credible' moslem - who is busily promulgating the 'truth' about his community [and ISLAM] to us uninformed 'misinformed' and confused kufar.         Roll Eyes



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #11 - Mar 25th, 2014 at 1:33pm
 
Quote:
Religiously, people tend to fall into two categories. Some find the meaning they seek in religious forms – commandments, observances, and texts straightforwardly, largely literally, interpreted – while others, without bypassing or abandoning these, sense their provisional character and reach out for meanings that the forms contain but which cannot be equated with those forms. If we call the first type of person exoteric, out of his concern for meanings that attach to outward or manifest forms, the second type that is drawn to the meanings that underlie those forms is conveniently designated esoteric. Both types turn up in all the historical religions and very likely in tribal ones as well.

Religious fundamentalists, be they Christian, Jewish or Muslim, are all concerned with a literal interpretation of their Holy Books, and unanimously reject the mystical or esoteric approach. History shows it is often from the ranks of these self-proclaimed fundamentalists, obsessed as they are with outward observance and a one dimensional reading of sacred scripture, that intolerance, bigotry and violence emerge.


http://moorishacademy.org/articles/in_search_of_the_secret.html


Out of all the branches of Islam I have some of the most respect for Sufism and it's higher teachings.

Then again many within Islam consider the mystical leanings of Sufism a corruption - much like the early Christian Church considered the teachings and practices of many Christian mystics to be false and corrupt.


Quote:
Look for the moon in the sky, not in the water!
  If you desire to rise above mere names and letters,
  Make yourself free from self at one stroke.
  Become pure from all attributes of self,
  That you may see your own bright essence,
  Yea, see in your own heart the knowledge of the Prophet,
  Without book, without tutor, without preceptor."


http://answering-islam.org/Books/Mystics/chap3.htm
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« Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2014 at 6:04pm by 0ktema »  


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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #12 - Mar 25th, 2014 at 1:44pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 23rd, 2014 at 10:13am:
Arab society at Muhammed's time was based on genuine equality. Jews, Christians and Pagans lived together and traded with each other on equal terms.


A source would be great FD.

Actually, I would say that the pre-pre islamic society was pretty close to genuine equality - that is the nomadic bedouin society that preceded the urbanised, mercantile society that Muhammad was born into.

The ancient arab nomadic society was based around an honour code and absolute clan loyalty. Every member of a clan was provided for by that clan, there were no destitutes or beggars forced to fend for themselves. Within the clan structure it was pure socialism in action. Inter-clan relationships were largely harmonious, and based around maintaining the honour of the clan.

All this changed with the transformation of Arabia as a major trading hub between Asia and Europe. Society became urbanised as the economy changed from nomadic to mercantile. As a result, the clan-based society broke down as capitalism and individualism reigned supreme. And as always happens in such societies, power and money became the exclusive domain to a tiny elite, who concentrated their efforts on increasing their power and wealth. The clan structures broke down almost completely, and a new underclass emerged consisting of impoverished, destitute and orphans. Most of society became effective slaves of the privileged, bonded by economic debt.

This was the society that Muhammad grew up in, and there was a real opening for a flamboyant visionary, who would address the near-breakdown of society and champion the under-privileged masses. Thus it is understandable that in this context, Muhammad's first revelations were almost entirely about ending oppression and taking care of the under-privileged. Among other things, the early revelations dedicated a surprisingly large focus on orphans. Muhammad's message was a social-justice message, and almost all his early followers were those who bore the brunt of the social injustice that he spoke against.

This is the argument put forward by arguably the most pre-eminent western islamic scholar - Montgommery Watt. It is repeated in the works of other non-muslim researchers including Reeza Aslan and Karen Armstrong. In fact I don't think anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of the historical Muhammad would suggest that this social reality wasn't key to the rise of Muhammad - let alone deny that it even existed. Thats why only someone who has not read a single book on the subject, and relies solely on their own prejudice can come up with the tripe that you spew here.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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wally1
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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #13 - Mar 25th, 2014 at 1:45pm
 
Yadda wrote on Mar 25th, 2014 at 1:10pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 23rd, 2014 at 10:51am:

Ladies and gentlemen, Yadda has serious competition.





Yadda paraphrases Karnal;

More and more people are becoming aware of what moslems and the moslem communities, who are living within non-moslem host countries are 'about'.

More and more people are becoming aware of the blatant deception and the blatant lies [of moslems], and of the barbarity, inequity, and the threats, and the 'justified' violence which is freely promulgated by moslems [among themselves] and within the moslem communities, who are living within non-moslem host countries.






Please watch this YT...
Muslims being deceptive Islam EX-Muslims

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZx8cNSC9O0



Please watch this YT...
ISLAM - THREE THINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OzxiHfWvBGw








BLATANT LIES.....

Quote:

A body representing British 'mainstream' moslems, The Muslim Council of Britain, declares on its website, that ISLAM is a philosophy which condemns extremism and violence....


Quote:

Rejecting Terror
Thursday, 11 April 2013

Muslims everywhere consider all acts of terrorism that aims to murder and maim innocent human beings utterly reprehensible and abhorrent. There is no theological basis whatsoever for such acts in our faith. The very meaning of the word 'Islam' is peace. It rejects terror and promotes peace and harmony.




http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2307:mcbnewst...
http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-656







ISLAMIC law....

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."





FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260




"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29






What people you talking about?

Your church members?

I hardly hear anything negatives about muslims, be it at work, in the shopping mall, at work.

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Re: Islam and equality
Reply #14 - Mar 25th, 2014 at 2:26pm
 
Yadda wrote on Mar 25th, 2014 at 1:10pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 23rd, 2014 at 10:51am:

Ladies and gentlemen, Yadda has serious competition.





Yadda paraphrases Karnal;

More and more people are becoming aware of what moslems and the moslem communities, who are living within non-moslem host countries are 'about'.

More and more people are becoming aware of the blatant deception and the blatant lies [of moslems]...


But, Y, all we've read here over the last few weeks is blatant deception and fibs about the Muselman - underage defacto status and all.

Even you know that. You were even trying to pretend there was no claim of an "explosion" of child marriages.

I'm happy to become aware of what "(M)oslems and the (M)oslem communities, who are living within non-moslem host countries are 'about'." You don't need to make up fibs.

Just tell it like it is.

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