Gandalf could you please elaborate on the Islamic concepts behind this? How much of Muhammed's examples can you discard in this way? In practice, what difference is there between a "sunna" and a something that is merely "a great example to follow"?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 10:47am:


The context was Gandalf describing as a "great example to follow" the time when Muhammed and his followers executed 800 Jewish POWs and took their wives as sex slaves.

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 5:31pm:


I covered that (ie no one "trains" anyone - like its something to aspire to :p)- you refuse to listen. Just like you didn't listen - and then just plain forgot my painstaking explanation of the apparent contradiction between Muhammad's actions and islamic teachings - which you just claimed I never addressed.

FD, give me one good reason why I should go to the trouble of addressing these things if you're just going to ignore it, then 3 months down the track claim that I never addressed it in the first place? Seems like a wasted effort to me.

Lets stay focused on what this is really about: this is about freediver trying desperately to get around the fact that the vast majority of muslims are abhorred by child marriage, and want it stamped out. This is about FD putting words in muslims mouths, when he can't find the "right" quotes from muslims to defame them. This is about FD tying himself completely in knots by pointing the accusing finger at muslims when they don't specifically invoke islam when condemning child marriage - and doing exactly the same thing when muslims do.

Is child marriage a problem in the muslim community? You betcha - just as it is a problem in sections of the hindu community, and just like child abuse is shockingly ingrained in certain catholic institutions. All these problems need a constructive solution, which involves working with the members of those communities who are just as shocked and outraged by the problem as those who are outside the communities. Demonising these people not only doesn't help, it obstructs solutions and creates further divisions in society. "Addressing" this problem by pointing fingers at good-willed people and saying "ha - you can't deny that this doesn't go against islamic teaching" can only do two things 1. satiate your deep seated prejudice and 2. slap the muslim community in the face and say 'I am determined to ensure this problem remains unsolved'.   

There are at least 60 child brides living in south-western Sydney, and many more girls are destined to be forced into under-age marriage, according to the head of a women's health centre.

Eman Sharobeem works with teenage girls in Fairfield, Liverpool and Cabramatta. Many of them have been married in the past three years.

She said that forced and under-age marriages would not stop until immigrants received education the moment that they stepped onto Australian soil. If they were not educated about Australian values and laws, new arrivals would continue to be taught by already settled communities who encouraged the illegal and archaic practice, she said.

Dr Sharobeem, who is the manager of the Immigrant Women's Health Service in Fairfield, said under-age marriage was carried out by many cultures across Asia, India and the Middle East and had nothing to do with religion.

Advertisement Of the 60 cases she was aware of in the past three years, 20 of the girls had come to the Fairfield centre asking for help.

Once girls were married, there was intense pressure from their communities to remain where they are. ''If they leave they will be called sluts, home wreckers and [accused] of destroying the family,'' Dr Sharobeem said.

She wants help to set up a bilingual hotline that young girls can call for help or to report their abuse.

The 24-hour hotline is supported Family and Community Services Minister Pru Goward.

In February, a 26-year-old man was charged over an illegal marriage to a 12-year-old girl. The girl's father was also charged.

Dr Sharobeem said immigrants came to Australia with zero information, but were quickly taught not to allow their women to integrate.

''I've heard men with my own ears shouting [to new arrivals]: 'This country is about supporting women. It is our rule as head of the family to keep the women away from the bad influence of the country and not let them learn English.' ''

One woman recently came to her in tears and said her husband, who was still awaiting clearance in the detention centre, threatened to kill her if she learnt English or went out of the house without him.

''This is happening in Australia. We are not in the suburbs of Afghanistan - this is the suburbs of Sydney.''

A mother and father came into her office and proudly spoke of how they had just celebrated the wedding of their daughter in Iraq.

Dr Sharobeem had said to them, ''Fantastic! Where is she?'' They pointed to a petite and silent 14-year-old girl sitting next to them.

''I looked at the child in the room and I froze,'' Dr Sharobeem said.

The child bride was two months pregnant and in need of a doctor.

Not wanting to scare the family, Dr Sharobeem told them they had committed a crime but promised to keep their secret if they made an appointment for their daughter to see a nurse.

She planned on reporting the under-age marriage to police once she knew the girl was safe but her parents never returned. ''The father rang and said, 'Ah, doctor, my daughter lost the baby and we actually send her back to Iraq, so you don't need to worry about her.'''

The act of forced marriage was criminalised in Australia last year but Dr Sharobeem said the law had had no effect.

''Education is the key to stopping this.'' Dr Sharobeem has stopped parents from taking their children overseas to marry by alerting the Australian Federal Police and adding the names of children to the airport watch list.

She recently helped to annul the marriage of a 16-year-old Pakistani girl who was married against her will.

But she said she has to be careful with what she reported to maintain the trust of her clients and to ensure people would allow their daughters and wives to visit the centre.

The doors of the centre were open for all women and Dr Sharobeem said she would be waiting to help them, the way someone once helped her.

The Immigrant Women's Health Centre can be contacted on (02) 9726 4044.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/hotline-plan-to-help-hidden-child-brides-in-sydney-20140301-33sqm.html#ixzz2ur1o1ye0

it would be absolutely nonsensical to me to come into islam thinking "well it could be about tolerance and understanding, but equally it could be about bigotry". If I had accepted it was the latter, then I would not have embraced islam

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:


1. Lot is an interesting one. Islamic LGBT activist argue that the real sins of Lot's people was not the act of sodomy itself. Lets take just one description taken from a wiki article to examine this point:

The people of Sodom and Gomorrah, the twin cities which Lot was sent to with God's message, transgressed consciously against the bounds of God. Their avarice led to inhospitality and robbery, which in turn led to the humiliation of strangers by mistreatment and rape. It was their abominable sin of homosexuality which was seen as symptomatic of their attitudes

Taking away, of course, the part about "It was their abominable sin of homosexuality..." - and it can be seen how these activists make their case. The people of Lot "consciously transgressed" their religion, which led to a general display of immorality: inhospitality, robbery, rape etc. It is in this context, and *ONLY* this context that the act of sodomy is condemned - not, so the argument goes, the act of sodomy per se - where it can presumably be performed by righteous, God-fearing people in a proper, loving relationship (ie not lust).

Anyway...

One would imagine that if it was a specific order against sodomy itself, The Prophet would have said something like "If you find anyone committing sodomy..." rather than the slightly more cryptic "if you find anyone doing as Lot's people did..."

What we do know is that the sins of Lot's people was not sodomy per se - but the whole gamut of base, criminal behaviour that come with a complete moral breakdown - robbery, rape, murder etc, of which sodomy in that context came to symbolise.

By the description, Muhammad is clearly talking about an act of sodomy, but is it necessarily any act of sodomy? In my view, the case has not been conclusively made.

FD he's obviously talking about sodomy.

But the argument has been made (not by me) that he is only talking about sodomy that is borne out of lust and debauchery - not from genuine love and commitment.

You've got to admit there is a legitimate question about why he refers to it as "anyone doing as Lot's people did" as opposed to simply saying "anyone who commits sodomy"

Also, the quranic verses referring to Lot's people only refers to sodomy in the context of lust, no mention of sodomy in the context of genuine love and devotion.