Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
What’s the best kind of Navy for us? (Read 4309 times)
Pantheon
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Woke

Posts: 1256
Gender: male
What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Nov 15th, 2013 at 1:32am
 
Quote:
Once again battle has been joined on the shape of Australia’s next Navy. While this may appear as merely differing opinions on our future navy’s role, lurking barely submerged are the omnipresent (sea) battles over budgets and spending. In struggles over funding real ships, there are no shades of gray.

Hugh White has re-energised the debate with recent forays (here and here) about the push in Australia of having a small navy of big ships. He holds that the Navy seems to be building a fleet focused on protecting an amphibious force so it can deliver the Army on defended, foreign shores. Hugh bases his criticism on a belief that Australia would be best served by building a sea denial navy able to prevent hostile naval vessels from projecting power themselves. His preferred sea denial force structure comprises smaller less-capable ships, more numerous and better submarines and maritime strike aircraft.

Currently Hugh’s main protagonist is James Goldrick, who supports the small navy of big ships concept on sea control grounds (see also here). Much of Australia’s international trade travels by sea, and navies have always protected merchant ships and are therefore built big. James’s argument is interesting, as many earlier sea control advocates have pushed for a naval force structure of large numbers of small ships mostly optimised for anti-submarine warfare. Large numbers of more-affordable ships were seen as needed to protect multiple convoys of merchant ships. Having fewer big ships meant only a smaller number of convoys could be protected.

On James’s side are the power projection supporters like Jim Molan and the airpower-minded Williams Foundation who both argue—albeit from a different angle— that such large ship amphibious power projection is indeed what the ADF should be striving for. Taking a more carefully nuanced view is Thomas Lonergan, who cranks matters down a notch in stressing the two new big amphibious ships are not meant for high-end warfighting but lesser—if more likely—operations, a position with some supporters.

In sum, the naval debate in Australia seems to be across the three poles of sea denial, sea control and power projection. Such nautical debates are normally structured on such lines—nothing new here!

Across the Pacific however, the Chief of the US Navy is tacking in a different direction. Admiral Jonathan Greenert argues that the mission of the USN is presence, as far forward as possible. He says, provocatively: ‘We have to be where it matters. We need to be there when it matters’. For this, the Admiral advocates a large force of small ships like the Littoral Combat Ship (LCS), the Joint High Speed Vessel (JHSV) and the Mobile Landing Platform (MPL).

The USN currently has 24 LCSs, 11 JHSVs and 3 MPL variants under contract, with more sought. The Service has begun deploying LCSs to Singapore. Eight more will be sent to Bahrain possibly beginning next year. These smaller ships are seen to ‘closely resonate with some of the missions of the future’ where numbers matter such as counterpiracy, humanitarian operations and maritime security.

The focus on small ships provides more vessels. More importantly, when looking at this in strategic terms, such ships are easier for the host-country navy to work and exercise with and present fewer worries over basing. For an engagement strategy of the kind the Admiral advocates, smaller ships are simply more appropriate than big complex ones like Aegis cruisers or large amphibious ships. Big ships may be good for hosting cocktail parties but are hard to host.

Such a concept would present a startling picture if applied to Australia. We could potentially have warships deployed on a long-term basis across Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean, becoming truly and deeply engaged with neighbours and friends in ways never possible before. Small ships could help build good relationships as part of an engagement strategy and be on hand at all times, not just occasionally. Such a strategy-driven force structure is very different to the traditional sea denial, sea control and power projection operational concepts underpinning our contemporary nautical force structure debates.

As interesting as all this may seem, what does the new Minister think? The new Minister seems to be coming down on the sea control side, albeit with a big new twist: collective defence of the sea-lanes. The merchant ships that serve Australia are actually owned by others and so their defence is a shared problem. The Minister also seems to be moving towards a fourth big AWD as the political significance of sustaining the naval shipbuilding workforce increases and the budgetary difficulty of doing so declines.

In a curious twist of fate, the new small ships that Admiral Greenert talks of have strong linkages to Australian shipbuilding. WA’s Austal shipyards both designed, and is building, the USN’s new JHSVs and one of the two LCS types. If Australia has gone Spanish in building its small fleet of big ships, the USN has gone Australian in building its big fleet of small ships.

Is there room for some new thinking in Australia about naval force structure beyond the old constructs? A regional Indo-Pacific engagement strategy may suggest that some new ideas are worth considering. After all, a fourth AWD will cost some $2bn or about the same as four JHSVs and four LCSs. Maybe a more balanced strategy-driven debate is just what’s needed.

Perhaps the last word should be Minister Johnston’s. Speaking of the LCS he noted that ‘They are fast, cost effective and relatively easily built and very flexible and versatile. Our navy needs a suitable mix of high-end war-fighting capabilities, such as the Air Warfare Destroyers and smaller vessels…’

http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/


I'm more incline to that by building a sea denial navy able to prevent hostile naval vessels from projecting power themselves is the best kind of navy for Australia rather than building a fleet focused on protecting an amphibious force so it can deliver the Army on defended, foreign shores. 
Back to top
 

[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
IP Logged
 
|dev|null
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 4434
Gender: male
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #1 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 3:19pm
 
Why not, instead of spending money on toys for the boys, we spent it on diplomacy and aid?   That way we get people to like us and not attack us.  Your way, all we get to do is terrorise other nations and make them fearful if they choose to attack.   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy
Back to top
 

"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
IP Logged
 
BigOl64
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 14438
Townsville QLD
Gender: male
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #2 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 4:07pm
 
|dev|null wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 3:19pm:
Why not, instead of spending money on toys for the boys, we spent it on diplomacy and aid?   That way we get people to like us and not attack us.  Your way, all we get to do is terrorise other nations and make them fearful if they choose to attack.   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy



So in your pea brain you could not conceive where a country would do both, only one or the other?


This why morons don't get to be in charge of anything, they posess a total inablility to develop a rational dialectic process where multiple competing aims can be acheive concurrently.

Go away little boy, you're stupid and no-one wants to play with you.


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 111593
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #3 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 4:36pm
 
|dev|null wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 3:19pm:
Why not, instead of spending money on toys for the boys, we spent it on diplomacy and aid?   That way we get people to like us and not attack us.  Your way, all we get to do is terrorise other nations and make them fearful if they choose to attack. 


Very good post.

I have always said that we must try to slow down the arms race in Asia
by having an arms reduction treaty with all our neighbours.

It's something that should be raised at APEC in China 2014.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Brian Ross
Moderator
*****
Offline


Representative of me

Posts: 44333
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #4 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 8:43pm
 
The best kind of Navy for us?

Obviously one we can afford.   Roll Eyes
Back to top
 

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Pantheon
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Woke

Posts: 1256
Gender: male
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #5 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:15pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 8:43pm:
The best kind of Navy for us?

Obviously one we can afford.   Roll Eyes


Why wouldn't we be able to afford one? We are the 12th largest economy in the world after all. What could be taking up so much of our GDP that we couldn't afford one?
Back to top
 

[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
IP Logged
 
Brian Ross
Moderator
*****
Offline


Representative of me

Posts: 44333
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #6 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:26am
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:15pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 8:43pm:
The best kind of Navy for us?

Obviously one we can afford.   Roll Eyes


Why wouldn't we be able to afford one? We are the 12th largest economy in the world after all. What could be taking up so much of our GDP that we couldn't afford one?


We are the 12th largest economy because the others have slipped, not because we've done anything special.   As your question, perhaps the point is, we must be careful and not buy any white elephants which we cannot man, maintain or sustain.

In the early 1970s, the US Navy offered the RAN an Essex Class carrier as a Melbourne replacement.  The Essex were large, fleet carriers.  The RAN knocked it back 'cause they realised they couldn't man it and the rest of the fleet, within the budget constraints of the day.

And that is what you don't seem to recognise in your perpetual pie-in-the-sky dreaming.  There is an old saying ahovking.  "Amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics."   In this case the logistics of having a super-fleet (by Australian standards) just seem to pass you by.  Logistics also means budgetary restraints.  The Australian Government of what ever stripe doesn't see votes in Defence, so it's never going to have priority over the social programmes that affect everyday Australians, every day.   Roll Eyes 
Back to top
 

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
WWW  
IP Logged
 
BlueJam
New Member
*
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 36
Gender: male
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #7 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 10:43am
 
The previous Govt via the DCP 2012 aimed to combine the capabilities of Patrol Boats, Mine Coast Hunters and Hyrographic Survey ships into one boat of which approx. 15 were to be built.

Not a particularly sensible idea and one can only look at the so called modular and plug and play nature of the USN LCS to see what level of failure they are having. 

Hugh White and his fortress Australia and Sea Denial concepts always worry me - in that the fight comes to us and we have to be on the defensive rather than being able to project power and be a big stick with capability as a deterrent.

The 4th AWD has been made out by both sides of politics to be necessary for industry sustainment - it isn't this at all - its about capability. Three AWDS do not provide much capability whether it is ABM load or ability to provide escort duties. A fourth does make availability more likely and greater RAN protection and force projection.

A AWD on patrol with other Ships provides a significant capability whether it is combined our own Adelaide Class or involved in regional cooperation operations. Keep in mind apart from the US, Japan & Korea no other nations in our region has this capability.

There will never be 12 Submarines in the RAN - SEA 1000 is about a continuous program of boat building, sustainment and development. By the time the last of the next generation submarines are built the first will be retired and the process will start again.

The Future Frigate Program needs to get a move along. The Adelaide Class upgrade whilst ultimately successful is only taking these ships to a level that they should have been a long time ago. The program overruns saw the oldest two of the Class retired.  Hence two less ships in the RAN even though the design is rather old!

The Canberra Class LHD and Choules brings a amphibious capability lacking for a long time in our region.  As Indian and China become more dominant players in our region, Australia will be able to act in a tangible way in which either of these nations cannot at present.

This may be with peacekeeping, emergency aid and assistance that will strengthen our relationships with hard outcomes.  This is good foreign policy and assists with protecting our future as well.

The Amphibious Group based on 2 RAR will also provide a war fighting capability when required.



Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
greggerypeccary
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 143958
Gender: male
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #8 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 11:01am
 
|dev|null wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 3:19pm:
Why not, instead of spending money on toys for the boys, we spent it on diplomacy and aid?   That way we get people to like us and not attack us.  Your way, all we get to do is terrorise other nations and make them fearful if they choose to attack.   




Well, we need to keep those brainwashed expendable pawns occupied somehow.  Otherwise they'd be let loose on the streets.



...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Marenglin
New Member
*
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 10
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #9 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 3:54pm
 
Well I think a blue water navy would be out of the question due the enormous expansion it would entail to our already large military budget and the dubious benefits it would provide. Within the context of our current situation a green water navy that has focuses on being able to secure our borders and be able to co-operate with allied naval operations is the most reasonable navy for Australia.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
BigOl64
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 14438
Townsville QLD
Gender: male
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #10 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 10:07am
 
Marenglin wrote on Nov 21st, 2013 at 3:54pm:
Well I think a blue water navy would be out of the question due the enormous expansion it would entail to our already large military budget and the dubious benefits it would provide. Within the context of our current situation a green water navy that has focuses on being able to secure our borders and be able to co-operate with allied naval operations is the most reasonable navy for Australia.



The dubious benefits of protecting the sea lanes around our island nation you mean.  Grin


I think your first post in defence should also be your last.


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sprintcyclist
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 40954
Gender: male
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #11 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 10:27am
 
A navy that sinks illegals is best for us.
Back to top
 

Modern Classic Right Wing
 
IP Logged
 
|dev|null
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 4434
Gender: male
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #12 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 3:07pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 10:27am:
A navy that sinks illegals is best for us.


Yeah, Illegal Whalers would be a good start!  Then Illegal Tuna Fishers!  Then Illegal Oil Rigs!  Then Illegal Coal Ships!  Then Illegal ilLiberal Party Members!   Yeah, let's sink everything!  Yeah!!!!   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy
Back to top
 

"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
IP Logged
 
Baronvonrort
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 19466
Gender: male
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #13 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 4:18pm
 
|dev|null wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 3:19pm:
Why not, instead of spending money on toys for the boys, we spent it on diplomacy and aid? 


We already give away billions in foreign aid, we give the Palestinians over $1 million per week does that allow them to buy some cheese and missiles for the kids?

Our navy has become a glorified taxi service for those illegals leaving Indonesia
Back to top
 

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
IP Logged
 
Marenglin
New Member
*
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 10
Re: What’s the best kind of Navy for us?
Reply #14 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 6:46pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 10:07am:
The dubious benefits of protecting the sea lanes around our island nation you mean.  Grin


I think your first post in defence should also be your last.


Yes lets all give into fear mongering by the navy and write out a blank check, because if we dont buy more destroyers and build more submarines we will be done for! 

Face it the benefits are extremely dubious and given the high cost this is something we should be quite skeptical about.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print