Australian Politics Forum - Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program

Brian Ross

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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #30 - Oct 23^rd, 2013 at 12:51am

Pantheon wrote on Oct 20^th, 2013 at 11:20pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 20^th, 2013 at 1:04am:

Pantheon wrote on Oct 19^th, 2013 at 8:44pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 11:38pm:

I was waiting for someone to start quoting the Airpower Australia site of my old friend Carlo Kopp. While I have a lot of time for him normally, on this one he's mistaken and contradictory. He will describe Lockheed Martin as the biggest bunch of crooks over the F-35 but wax lyrical about the same company when discussing the F-22. He really cannot have his cake and eat it too. He's fallen into the same trap in believing that the production version of the F-35 will be as fault ridden as the prototypes. This is foolish.

Could you please explain why the production version will be nothing like the prototype version? Its my understanding that the production version would be based on the finalised prototype version, which at this point so close to production time still have so many problems (which no doubt will be eventually fix in time).

You've supplied the answer to your own question, Ahovking. Obviously it was a rhetorical question and requires no further input from me, which I suspect you're really not interested in anyway. You've made your mind up, as we can see from so many parallel threads on the same topic, all critical of the F-35. As I've pointed out to Bobby, from what I know and those I know who are intimately involved in the F-35 program, most of the problems in the prototype aircraft have been grossly exaggerated. There are problems in the management of the program but they have little to do with the physical aspects of the aircraft itself. Roll Eyes

..So ill take that as a 'Derp'. Glad to know the pentagon, watchdogs, and defence experts are worried about nothing.

No, what you should be worried about is believing the media exaggeration of those worries, Ahovking. I'll take the word over those I know personally anytime over that of the media.

As I've said, there are worrying aspects about how the project has been managed. That does not mean that there are quite the problems claimed about the actual aircraft.

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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #31 - Oct 23^rd, 2013 at 12:55am

Old Codger wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 5:24pm:

Another little gem was the observation that in VN, a study showed that of air to air dog-fights, only 2% were above Mach.1.

OC

That might have been because most of the VNPAF's aircraft were MiG-17s and subsonic and that because of the ROEs that were imposed on the USAF/USN/USMC pilots were such that they needed to make a positive visual ID of the enemy aircraft before they could engage it. This mean that they had to approach closely and fly within the engagement envelope of the VNPAF's MiG-17s. They were unable to utilise their BVR radar guided missiles and had to rely upon guns and WiVR IR guided missiles. As all the missiles were rather less than reliable, that essentially meant they were flying in a way that veterans of Korea and WWII would have been quite familiar with.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #32 - Oct 23^rd, 2013 at 12:59am

BlueJam wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 4:37pm:

Hi OC

the Bell and Cobra are more about Hun in the Sun guns blazing fighting the old style knife fight that two modern fighter jets aren't going to get into.

It is awesome to watch but its more an air show crowd pleaser and salesman line pitch

With the Bell and Cobra you pull a swift move in your Su 27 and the bad guy over shoots or bleeds that much energy he almost stalls then you hit them with your guns

As I mentioned earlier modern jet fighting is BVR and short range missiles - guns in jets are going to be used against ground targets, tethered aerostats, helicopters and slow prop driven fixed winged aircraft etc

Basically I agree, Bluejam. No pilot in his mind would utilise such a manoeuvre in combat. Anything that deliberately bleeds your energy away like the Cobra is suicidal. Modern air combat is all about high energy manoeuvres - boom and zoom - not turning dogfights.

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Old Codger Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 547 Melbourne. Gender:	Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program Reply #33 - Oct 23^rd, 2013 at 4:06am BR, "That might have been because most of the VNPAF's aircraft were MiG-17s" Thanks for that, my memory is no longer 100% reliable, and I did think they had the MiG21, but maybe not. I have sat in the cockpit of a MiG 17 on the Sunshine coast, it is VERY cramped, and i am not a big bloke. OC
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Brian Ross

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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #34 - Oct 23^rd, 2013 at 9:18pm

Old Codger wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2013 at 4:06am:

BR,

"That might have been because most of the VNPAF's aircraft were MiG-17s"

Thanks for that, my memory is no longer 100% reliable, and I did think they had the MiG21, but maybe not.

I have sat in the cockpit of a MiG 17 on the Sunshine coast, it is VERY cramped, and i am not a big bloke.

OC

They had MiG-21s but their main fighter was the MiG-17 during The Second Indo-China War. IIRC they had two or three squadrons of MiG-21 versus treble that number of MiG-17. The MiG-17 was a superlative dogfighter and the VNPAF employed it skillfully and shot down quite a few faster American fighters and bombers with it. As I said, the real cause of that was the ROEs imposed on the US pilots.

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Bobby.

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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #35 - Oct 23^rd, 2013 at 9:26pm

BigOl64 wrote on Oct 19^th, 2013 at 6:43am:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 11:38pm:

I was waiting for someone to start quoting the Airpower Australia site of my old friend Carlo Kopp. While I have a lot of time for him normally, on this one he's mistaken and contradictory. He will describe Lockheed Martin as the biggest bunch of crooks over the F-35 but wax lyrical about the same company when discussing the F-22. He really cannot have his cake and eat it too. He's fallen into the same trap in believing that the production version of the F-35 will be as fault ridden as the prototypes. This is foolish.

I remember when technical issues with military aircraft used to be classified, damn the whole aircraft existance was denied as part of its normal evolution.

Now anyone one with an internent link seem to be able to post an opinion no matter how ignorant and present it as a fact. Down side is, that those who believe that sh1t re-present the same drivel ans absolut fact. Yes Im talking about the like of bobby.

Most of the serious technical problems we had with the F111 were never made public, and we just fixed them and contiued to operate that aircaft as per normal.

No need to get all worked up over moronic specualtion, if you don't work on them or fly them, chances are, you are not overflowing with facts. If you are a civilian, even more so.

BigOl,
Stop talking about me & learn how to spell.

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Pantheon

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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #36 - Oct 24^th, 2013 at 12:08am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2013 at 12:51am:

Pantheon wrote on Oct 20^th, 2013 at 11:20pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 20^th, 2013 at 1:04am:

Pantheon wrote on Oct 19^th, 2013 at 8:44pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 11:38pm:

I was waiting for someone to start quoting the Airpower Australia site of my old friend Carlo Kopp. While I have a lot of time for him normally, on this one he's mistaken and contradictory. He will describe Lockheed Martin as the biggest bunch of crooks over the F-35 but wax lyrical about the same company when discussing the F-22. He really cannot have his cake and eat it too. He's fallen into the same trap in believing that the production version of the F-35 will be as fault ridden as the prototypes. This is foolish.

Could you please explain why the production version will be nothing like the prototype version? Its my understanding that the production version would be based on the finalised prototype version, which at this point so close to production time still have so many problems (which no doubt will be eventually fix in time).

You've supplied the answer to your own question, Ahovking. Obviously it was a rhetorical question and requires no further input from me, which I suspect you're really not interested in anyway. You've made your mind up, as we can see from so many parallel threads on the same topic, all critical of the F-35. As I've pointed out to Bobby, from what I know and those I know who are intimately involved in the F-35 program, most of the problems in the prototype aircraft have been grossly exaggerated. There are problems in the management of the program but they have little to do with the physical aspects of the aircraft itself. Roll Eyes

..So ill take that as a 'Derp'. Glad to know the pentagon, watchdogs, and defence experts are worried about nothing.

No, what you should be worried about is believing the media exaggeration of those worries, Ahovking. I'll take the word over those I know personally anytime over that of the media.

As I've said, there are worrying aspects about how the project has been managed. That does not mean that there are quite the problems claimed about the actual aircraft.

This information isn't from the media but from pentagon, watchdogs, and defence experts themselves.

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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.

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BigOl64 Gold Member Offline Posts: 14438 Townsville QLD Gender:	Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program Reply #37 - Oct 24^th, 2013 at 12:45pm Bobby. wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2013 at 9:26pm: BigOl, Stop talking about me & learn how to spell. Learn the difference between a typo and a spelling error.
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Brian Ross

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Re: Dutch face reality of a failed F-35 program
Reply #38 - Oct 24^th, 2013 at 11:59pm

Pantheon wrote on Oct 24^th, 2013 at 12:08am:

This information isn't from the media but from pentagon, watchdogs, and defence experts themselves.

Well, actually it is from the media, Ahovking. I doubt you would be aware of Pentagon reports or those of US "watchdogs". As for "defence experts", I have made the point many times before - unless they are actually involved in the program, they will be relying on the same second-hand reports that you are. Roll Eyes

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