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spineless apologetics (Read 340998 times)
sir prince duke alevine
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2040 - Sep 26th, 2017 at 10:45pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 10:38pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 10:33pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 10:30pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 10:19pm:
TongueMattyfisk wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 10:13pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 9:29pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 9:15pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 8:23pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 6:06pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 5:58pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 5:52pm:
How many?

And the use of crusade was admitted by bush to be the wrong choice of word. Now, how many jihadists afterwards tell us they were wrong to say they committed an act in the name of their religion?

Keep trying to link where links don't exist. It only goes to show how much of a spineless, dishonest apologetic you are.


Good point.


Oh, I know. Alevine's taken to your style, dear boy. The only thing he's left out is the tinted Paki Bastard compliment.

Still a good point.



True. The focus groups, speech writers and White House history buffs stumbled upon the wrong choice of word. An easy mishtake to make.

You'd never see the tinted races do that, eh?

Apart from that spineless Sheik Hilaly and his cat-meat nonsense. Typical.

"Regressives".

Now you're strawmanning the point I made.  But let's play your strawman:  it is not unreasonable that at some point someone on bushs staff thought it appropriate to talk about religious war, when talking to Palestinians, because , let's face it, that's what Islamic leaders seem to want to talk about.


After two years of planning the message and beating the war drums?

Not really, Alevine. You?

Oh, that's right. You used to say exactly the same thing yourself.

"Regressives".

I've never claimed Bush went to war on the basis of religion.  yes, I once thought invasion Iraq was a bad idea, as we've covered time and again, but similarly to how Bush is allowed to misspeak, I am allowed to change my mind. My mind on Iraq has changed, as we've covered time and again. Not sure why you think that's some kind of negative, or why you think that somehow diminishes what my argument to you is?  Is this another of your 'I'll ignore what he says and just go with what I want him to say' type of nonsense?


Was it nonsense then, or now?

I'm curious.

And yes, you most certainly blamed Bush for being a religious zealot and waging a religious war. I don't think you're being dishonest, I just think you'd like to forget.


You can of course quote me when ever I said 'waging a religious war.' 

A religious zealot? yes, I don't like any leaders who try to use religion within their decision making. I think it's stupid and inappropriate, so undoubtedly I may have called Bush a religious zealot because he probably is.  But waging a religious war? Not to my recollection.

And nonsense then, as I have clearly stated and you have clearly ignored time and again. Why would I be pretending now? Do you not see how irrational this question is, Karnal? It's just plain stupid to think someone is making something up NOW. Especially with the Iraq War, which has only seen a decline in its public opinion. Why would I NOW say I would agree with removing Sadam Hassain if it was 'nonsense'?


I can't say why you'd pretend now, Alevine. Some people just get mixed up, I guess.

It's a surprise to me too, remember. I have no idea why your views changed.


So you can't see why I'd pretend ,and yet I'm pretending? Great logic, Karnal. Great logic indeed. Grin
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Mattyfisk
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2041 - Sep 26th, 2017 at 11:06pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 5:52pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 1:25pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 9:40pm:
[quote author=gandalf link=1379233325/1926#1926 date=1506043074][quote author=alevine link=1379233325/1921#1921 date=1506003911]
Actually extremist catholics, protestants and jews are different to extremist muslims because extremist catholics, protestants and jews don't go around blowing up people


Thats right alevine - they don't need to, as the moderate ones do it for them. How many people do you think are blown up every day by the moderate "non-extremist" American government? Do you reckon the number of innocents killed by extremist muslims pales in comparison to the number of innocents killed by "non-extremist" catholics, protestants and jews?

The American government is now a religious institution?  I'm just gonna pretend this a comment from you after your first beer, Gandalf. Honestly.


Not pretending, Alevine. Honestly.
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2042 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 12:04am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 11:06pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 5:52pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 1:25pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 9:40pm:
[quote author=gandalf link=1379233325/1926#1926 date=1506043074][quote author=alevine link=1379233325/1921#1921 date=1506003911]
Actually extremist catholics, protestants and jews are different to extremist muslims because extremist catholics, protestants and jews don't go around blowing up people


Thats right alevine - they don't need to, as the moderate ones do it for them. How many people do you think are blown up every day by the moderate "non-extremist" American government? Do you reckon the number of innocents killed by extremist muslims pales in comparison to the number of innocents killed by "non-extremist" catholics, protestants and jews?

The American government is now a religious institution?  I'm just gonna pretend this a comment from you after your first beer, Gandalf. Honestly.


Not pretending, Alevine. Honestly.

Now you're quoting gandalf as yourself? Why so dishonest?
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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2043 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 9:49am
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 5:50pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 9:40pm:
The American government is now a religious institution? 


To the evangelicals and the religious white supremacist nutjobs - absolutely it is. And they absolutely see 'righteous' wars like toppling Saddam and financially and militarily aiding Israel's occupation of Palestine as carrying out God's divine plan. Its no coincidence that George W proudly declared that God told him to invade Iraq. American (read: white christian) hegemony over evil heathens in the ME, and the necessary terrorising of those populations that comes with that is central to these extremist's ideology - and from where they're sitting, their government is doing a bang up job on that front. 

Fairly sure he was talking to the Palestinians when he said that, not the evangelicals. But hey, nothing new to see you take something out of context.  The reality is, the American government is not driven by religion when it comes to whatever military operation it undertakes.  On the other hand, the fact Shiites and Sunnis can't live together, the fact you have states stoning people in the name of Islam, the act you have jihadists, all has very much to do with their religion.


First point, it is irrelevant who he said it to - the fact that he was able to say it and not be roundly pilloried, and immediate calls for his resignation (as would surely have happened in Australia), is whats relevant.

Second point, no one is arguing whether or not the American Government itself is driven by religion - the issue here is the fact that the government in effect 'does the dirty work' of the religious nutjobs - ie maintaining white christian hegemony over the tinted heathens, and slaughtering lots and lots of them in the process. And they do this whether this is their actual intention or not (obviously it isn't).
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Mattyfisk
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2044 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 1:48pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 12:04am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 11:06pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 5:52pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 1:25pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 9:40pm:
[quote author=gandalf link=1379233325/1926#1926 date=1506043074][quote author=alevine link=1379233325/1921#1921 date=1506003911]
Actually extremist catholics, protestants and jews are different to extremist muslims because extremist catholics, protestants and jews don't go around blowing up people


Thats right alevine - they don't need to, as the moderate ones do it for them. How many people do you think are blown up every day by the moderate "non-extremist" American government? Do you reckon the number of innocents killed by extremist muslims pales in comparison to the number of innocents killed by "non-extremist" catholics, protestants and jews?

The American government is now a religious institution?  I'm just gonna pretend this a comment from you after your first beer, Gandalf. Honestly.


Not pretending, Alevine. Honestly.

Now you're quoting gandalf as yourself? Why so dishonest?


Cunning, no?

Mattyfisk wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
First point, it is irrelevant who he said it to - the fact that he was able to say it and not be roundly pilloried, and immediate calls for his resignation (as would surely have happened in Australia), is whats relevant.

Second point, no one is arguing whether or not the American Government itself is driven by religion - the issue here is the fact that the government in effect 'does the dirty work' of the religious nutjobs - ie maintaining white christian hegemony over the tinted heathens, and slaughtering lots and lots of them in the process. And they do this whether this is their actual intention or not (obviously it isn't).
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moses
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2045 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 4:44pm
 
A couple of nutjobs wrote:

Quote:
First point, it is irrelevant who he said it to - the fact that he was able to say it and not be roundly pilloried, and immediate calls for his resignation (as would surely have happened in Australia), is whats relevant.

Second point, no one is arguing whether or not the American Government itself is driven by religion - the issue here is the fact that the government in effect 'does the dirty work' of the religious nutjobs - ie maintaining white christian hegemony over the tinted heathens, and slaughtering lots and lots of them in the process. And they do this whether this is their actual intention or not (obviously it isn't).


Something to cheer both of you up:
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evil_whitemen.jpg (33 KB | 26 )
evil_whitemen.jpg
 
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2046 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 5:39pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 9:49am:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 5:50pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 9:40pm:
The American government is now a religious institution? 


To the evangelicals and the religious white supremacist nutjobs - absolutely it is. And they absolutely see 'righteous' wars like toppling Saddam and financially and militarily aiding Israel's occupation of Palestine as carrying out God's divine plan. Its no coincidence that George W proudly declared that God told him to invade Iraq. American (read: white christian) hegemony over evil heathens in the ME, and the necessary terrorising of those populations that comes with that is central to these extremist's ideology - and from where they're sitting, their government is doing a bang up job on that front. 

Fairly sure he was talking to the Palestinians when he said that, not the evangelicals. But hey, nothing new to see you take something out of context.  The reality is, the American government is not driven by religion when it comes to whatever military operation it undertakes.  On the other hand, the fact Shiites and Sunnis can't live together, the fact you have states stoning people in the name of Islam, the act you have jihadists, all has very much to do with their religion.


First point, it is irrelevant who he said it to - the fact that he was able to say it and not be roundly pilloried, and immediate calls for his resignation (as would surely have happened in Australia), is whats relevant.

Second point, no one is arguing whether or not the American Government itself is driven by religion - the issue here is the fact that the government in effect 'does the dirty work' of the religious nutjobs - ie maintaining white christian hegemony over the tinted heathens, and slaughtering lots and lots of them in the process. And they do this whether this is their actual intention or not (obviously it isn't).


I'm sorry but you were exactly arguing that the government is driven by religion when you decided to make the stupid argument that moderate Christians are killing in the Middle East. And no, arguing that the aim of fighting in the Middle East is to maintain a white Christian hegemony is also wrong, but definitely shows your outmost delusion. No western government is religious. All western governments and societies are secular. The only reason there is any fighting against the "tinted heathens" is simply because unfortunately the "tinted heathens" have decided to embrace a screwed up religion that 1) tells them to kill those who don't follow their screwed up religion and 2) tells them they can't even live amongst each other. The problem isn't a desire to keep a "Christian hegemony".  The problem is Islam.  When will you end this spineless apologising for Islam?
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Secret Wars
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2047 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:10pm
 
Oh geeze, Brian tried this apologist stupidity declaring that Iraq was a Christian war trying to invoke images of the crusades and religious domination.

Which just goes to show what an unthinking tool he is. 

Any intelligent assessment of the second Iraq war would know it was a misguided and ill thought out quest by Bush in thrall to Rumsfeld and Cheney to leverage a state recalcitrant with weapons inspections post 9/11 into fears of a mushroom cloud which left open a quick and easy invasion of Iraq.

They envisaged this would be easy, and it was, and would leave them as welcome liberators on a lake of oil in the middle of the Middle East and a counter weight to Iran.  A state that post Saddam would be grateful and welcome to direction as to its government.

Might have worked out as well if not for ham fisted Debaathication by Bremer.

It's all out there, no need to go to stupid bullshit that it was Christians against Muslims in pursuit of religious dominance.
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Brian Ross
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2048 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:25pm
 
Secret Wars wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:10pm:
Oh geeze, Brian tried this apologist stupidity declaring that Iraq was a Christian war trying to invoke images of the crusades and religious domination.


Did I?  Really?   Roll Eyes

Quote:
Any intelligent assessment of the second Iraq war would know it was a misguided and ill thought out quest by Bush in thrall to Rumsfeld and Cheney to leverage a state recalcitrant with weapons inspections post 9/11 into fears of a mushroom cloud which left open a quick and easy invasion of Iraq.


Yet we have the pronouncements by Bush, et al, that it was a "crusade".   Actually, I believe it was more a personal crusade by George W. after he declared that Saddam wanted to "kill my daddy..."   

Quote:
They envisaged this would be easy, and it was, and would leave them as welcome liberators on a lake of oil in the middle of the Middle East and a counter weight to Iran.  A state that post Saddam would be grateful and welcome to direction as to its government.

Might have worked out as well if not for ham fisted Debaathication by Bremer.

It's all out there, no need to go to stupid bullshit that it was Christians against Muslims in pursuit of religious dominance.   


Always easy to blame the ham-fisted underling rather than the ham-fisted superior, now isn't it?  Bremer was only doing what he had been ordered to do.  He wasn't a military man and didn't know of the relationship between the tribal leaders and the insurgent leaders.  The insurgency was onto a winning formula until they tried to marry into the tribal leading families.  Once that decision was made, the tribal leaders decided to bump off the insurgents and side with the new government.  Then along came something even worse, Daesh.    Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2049 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:36pm
 
what I always find utterly hilarious is that opponents of the Iraq War, and apologetics for Islam, always ignore the crimes of the genocidal Hussein family because at least the secularists kept stability in the country and stopped insurgencies from crazy religious nutters. Do you realise that you are literally arguing a genocidal maniac who killed 2+ million was a better option than a Islamic cleric/imam leading Iraq?  So much for Islam being so wonderful.
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« Last Edit: Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:58pm by sir prince duke alevine »  

Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.
 
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Secret Wars
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2050 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:56pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:36pm:
what I always find utterly hilarious is that proponents of the Iraq War, and apologetics for Islam, always ignore the crimes of the genocidal Hussein family because at least the secularists kept stability in the country and stopped insurgencies from crazy religious nutters. Do you realise that you are literally arguing a genocidal maniac who killed 2+ million was a better option than a Islamic cleric/imam leading Iraq?  So much for Islam being so wonderful.


Brian doesn't have the ability to criticise Islam.   Grin Grin Grin

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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2051 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:58pm
 
Secret Wars wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:56pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:36pm:
what I always find utterly hilarious is that proponents of the Iraq War, and apologetics for Islam, always ignore the crimes of the genocidal Hussein family because at least the secularists kept stability in the country and stopped insurgencies from crazy religious nutters. Do you realise that you are literally arguing a genocidal maniac who killed 2+ million was a better option than a Islamic cleric/imam leading Iraq?  So much for Islam being so wonderful.


Brian doesn't have the ability to criticise Islam.   Grin Grin Grin

 

I feel it's time for him to call me a islamaphobe or something... Wink
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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2052 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 7:22pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:36pm:
what I always find utterly hilarious is that opponents of the Iraq War, and apologetics for Islam, always ignore the crimes of the genocidal Hussein family because at least the secularists kept stability in the country and stopped insurgencies from crazy religious nutters. Do you realise that you are literally arguing a genocidal maniac who killed 2+ million was a better option than a Islamic cleric/imam leading Iraq?  So much for Islam being so wonderful.


Oh, I've always said that Saddam had to go.  It just needed the right cassis belli, rather than the lies that Bush and Co. created to justify their silly invasion of Iraq.   The best point would have been in 1991 when Bush junior's father had the opportunity but didn't take it.  Bit of a cleft stick there, caught between what the supporters of the Coalition wanted and what was best for the Iraqi people.   
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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polite_gandalf
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2053 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 7:23pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 5:39pm:
I'm sorry but you were exactly arguing that the government is driven by religion when you decided to make the stupid argument that moderate Christians are killing in the Middle East. And no, arguing that the aim of fighting in the Middle East is to maintain a white Christian hegemony is also wrong, but definitely shows your outmost delusion. No western government is religious. All western governments and societies are secular. The only reason there is any fighting against the "tinted heathens" is simply because unfortunately the "tinted heathens" have decided to embrace a screwed up religion that 1) tells them to kill those who don't follow their screwed up religion and 2) tells them they can't even live amongst each other. The problem isn't a desire to keep a "Christian hegemony".  The problem is Islam.  When will you end this spineless apologising for Islam?


100% misinterpretation of what I said. I was going to dissect it and explain it, but since all your claims about what I said here are completely wrong, its just easier to tell you to go back and reread what I said and try and understand it better.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #2054 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 7:24pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 7:22pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:36pm:
what I always find utterly hilarious is that opponents of the Iraq War, and apologetics for Islam, always ignore the crimes of the genocidal Hussein family because at least the secularists kept stability in the country and stopped insurgencies from crazy religious nutters. Do you realise that you are literally arguing a genocidal maniac who killed 2+ million was a better option than a Islamic cleric/imam leading Iraq?  So much for Islam being so wonderful.


Oh, I've always said that Saddam had to go.  It just needed the right cassis belli, rather than the lies that Bush and Co. created to justify their silly invasion of Iraq.   The best point would have been in 1991 when Bush junior's father had the opportunity but didn't take it.  Bit of a cleft stick there, caught between what the supporters of the Coalition wanted and what was best for the Iraqi people.   

What needed to happen was proper support following the invasion. instead the regressives got all upset about money spent.
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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.
 
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