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Fairness towards a religion? (Read 9600 times)
freediver
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Fairness towards a religion?
Sep 15th, 2013 at 8:27am
 
Brian, would you mind elaborating on this concept of fairness towards an ideology?

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14th, 2013 at 11:46pm:
I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion


Would you also demand the same fairness towards Nazism, communism, fascism etc?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #1 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 9:34am
 
FD, would you consider the following "unfair" towards islam?

- making up a story about how the recent Swedish riots were caused by a muslim threatening to honour kill his family in his kitchen (none of which was true)

- claiming that not a single muslim had condemned the recent murder of a British soldier when we know this to be untrue (quotes on this forum)

- dismissing an MI5 report that concluded that participation in mainstream islam is an effective antidote against extremism and terrorism - as a result of MI5 being "inflitrated" by islamists.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #2 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 9:50am
 
I'm still not sure how the concept of fairness towards an ideology even works. I think it's just another of Brian's arm-flailing efforts.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #3 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 10:25am
 
Its not fairness towards an ideology. Its a question of whether you think smearing a particular people (regardless of ideology) is fair game. You seem to think it is.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #4 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 10:39am
 
Quote:
Its not fairness towards an ideology.


Check the thread title Gandalf. Check Brian's post.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #5 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 10:44am
 
righto, I'll check Brian's post:

Quote:
I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion, not bigotry and hatred directed to them because of unreasoning fear and prejudice.   I refuse to accept your viewpoint and I suspect you find that annoying.  If a Muslim breaks the law or does something immoral, then by all means condemn them but stop with the effort to try and use collective guilt to condemn all Muslims in the way you do.


Hence, my point that its not "fairness towards an ideology. Its a question of whether you think smearing a particular people (regardless of ideology) is fair game." I have no idea how you can think this has anything to do with "Fairness towards a religion/ideology".
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #6 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 11:00am
 
I don't either. I don't think it even makes sense. But Brian brought it up and I am asking him what he means. I realise you feel obligued to return the favour and try to change the topic for him, but I'm sure he can speak for himself.
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #7 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 11:07am
 
I agree - what you attribute Brian as saying doesn't make sense, because he didn't say that, and you use a quote of his that is taken completely out of context.

Looking at what he actually says - as in the quote I just posted - makes perfect sense though.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #8 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 11:09am
 
It might if he left out the bit about fairness for a religion. Waffling on at the end doesn't really change what he said.
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #9 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 11:48am
 
It makes perfect sense FD - as does your desperate attempts to excuse prejudice and bigotry against muslims. Sadly.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #10 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 11:50am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 8:27am:
Brian, would you mind elaborating on this concept of fairness towards an ideology?

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14th, 2013 at 11:46pm:
I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion


Would you also demand the same fairness towards Nazism, communism, fascism etc?


Roll Eyes

FD you really are clutching at straws, aren't you?  Comparing apples and oranges?  A religion versus ideologies?  Tsk, tsk, yet again your premise fails.

I would suggest that before condemning a belief system it behoves the condemner to actually understand it.  As Gandalf and I have pointed out upon numerous occasions, you don't understand Islam or Muslims.  You start out from a prejudicial position and you carry that on, despite what you're told.

I don't claim to understand everything about Islam but I do know that Muslims are simply people and no different to any other people.  Some are passionate about their religion, most aren't or rather no more than say Catholics or any other Christian denomination are.  You however treat Muslims as if they are automatons.   

I wonder how many Catholics you know who are divorced/use contraception/had an abortion/etc., etc.?  They seem able to reconcile their views and actions with their beliefs, yet according to you, Muslims must obey every tenant of the Q'ran even when they are contradictory! 

If nothing else you sound like a replay of the criticisms I used to hear levelled at Catholics in Australia when I was a child.  The same ridiculous claims, the same idiotic views.  Australian society recognised how foolish that was and got over that sectarian divide, I hope you'll get over yours.    Roll Eyes
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freediver
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #11 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 11:58am
 
Quote:
Comparing apples and oranges?  A religion versus ideologies?


So a religion is not an ideology?

If Nazis decided Hitler was God's messenger, would you suddenly be obligued to defend them from "unfair" criticism?

Quote:
I would suggest that before condemning a belief system it behoves the condemner to actually understand it.


I ask Muslims about Islam. You do your best to cover your ears every time they open their mouths.

Quote:
I don't claim to understand everything about Islam but I do know that Muslims are simply people and no different to any other people.


Except that they are Muslims. I'm sure a Muslim would argue that makes them different. Not that you would accept a Muslim's word on the issue.

Quote:
You however treat Muslims as if they are automatons. 


So you keep saying. You are wrong.

Quote:
I wonder how many Catholics you know who are divorced/use contraception/had an abortion/etc., etc.?  They seem able to reconcile their views and actions with their beliefs, yet according to you, Muslims must obey every tenant of the Q'ran even when they are contradictory!


No Gandalf. According to Muslims they must do this. I am happy for them to abandon Islam.

Quote:
If nothing else you sound like a replay of the criticisms I used to hear levelled at Catholics in Australia when I was a child.


Were the catholics suggesting it is OK to marry 6 year old girls?

Quote:
The same ridiculous claims, the same idiotic views.  Australian society recognised how foolish that was and got over that sectarian divide, I hope you'll get over yours.


And yet here you are, demanding that I criticise catholics in order to be fair to Islam.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #12 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 12:27pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 11:58am:
Quote:
Comparing apples and oranges?  A religion versus ideologies?


So a religion is not an ideology?


It isn't.  Religions aren't secular, ideologies are, FD.   Roll Eyes

Quote:
If Nazis decided Hitler was God's messenger, would you suddenly be obligued to defend them from "unfair" criticism?


Nope.  I wouldn't piss on Herr Hitler if he was on fire, FD.

Again, comparing apples and oranges, FD.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes

Quote:
Quote:
I would suggest that before condemning a belief system it behoves the condemner to actually understand it.


I ask Muslims about Islam. You do your best to cover your ears every time they open their mouths.


I don't.  I also know that no Muslim is empowered to speak for all other Muslims, FD. Unlike you, whom seems to accept any Tom, Dick or Mohammed as the spokesman for all Muslims as long as they bring you something which you can beat all Muslims with.

I have known quite a few Muslims over the years and have found them all, bar one, to be good people.   I don't accept the fringe, Islamist Takfiris as being anything than spokespeople for themselves, FD.

And I'd suggest it doesn't matter how often you are told this, you prefer your bigotry and Islamophobia.  You describe anybody who holds an opinion different to yourself about Muslims as a "limp-wristed apologist", even before you've considered what they say.   Roll Eyes

Quote:
Quote:
I don't claim to understand everything about Islam but I do know that Muslims are simply people and no different to any other people.


Except that they are Muslims. I'm sure a Muslim would argue that makes them different. Not that you would accept a Muslim's word on the issue.


That is merely the religion they follow.  Just as Jews and Catholics and Protestants and other religious followers believe they are the "chosen people" the thing that they use to mark themselves out as different is their religious beliefs, yet once you get past that, they are people, just like me and maybe even just like you, FD.

You know what makes me laugh the most about you, FD?  If one changed the tags, you'd sound exactly like the Islamists.  They believe the most preposterous things about Christians and other religions.  Just like you.  You're their mirror-image.  "We have met the enemy and he is us..."    Grin

Quote:
Quote:
You however treat Muslims as if they are automatons. 


So you keep saying. You are wrong.


Yet your attitudes betray you, FD.  Your continued dogmatic attacks on Muslim stereotypes prove otherwise. Roll Eyes

Quote:
Quote:
I wonder how many Catholics you know who are divorced/use contraception/had an abortion/etc., etc.?  They seem able to reconcile their views and actions with their beliefs, yet according to you, Muslims must obey every tenant of the Q'ran even when they are contradictory!


No Gandalf. According to Muslims they must do this. I am happy for them to abandon Islam.


They don't have, any more than those Catholics do, despite going against some of the central tenants of their Church's dogma.  Muslims, like everybody else, perhaps even more so, have their own interpretations of their religion, FD and that is not something you accord them, do you?

Quote:
Quote:
If nothing else you sound like a replay of the criticisms I used to hear levelled at Catholics in Australia when I was a child.


Were the catholics suggesting it is OK to marry 6 year old girls?


If they came from Italy before 1945, they were for children of 12.  If they came from some states in the USA, yes they were.  Today, if they come from the Vatican State, they believe it's perfectly OK for children of 12 to marry.  Where is you condemnation of that, FD?  Mmmm...   Roll Eyes

Quote:
Quote:
The same ridiculous claims, the same idiotic views.  Australian society recognised how foolish that was and got over that sectarian divide, I hope you'll get over yours.


And yet here you are, demanding that I criticise catholics in order to be fair to Islam.


Are you arguing that Catholics should be given a free ride, FD?  Are you arguing about the problems of "institutionalisation" or just one religion?  Or will you duck those two questions...    Roll Eyes
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #13 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 12:31pm
 
Quote:
It isn't.  Religions aren't secular, ideologies are, FD.


I see English is not your strong point.

Quote:
Nope.  I wouldn't piss on Herr Hitler if he was on fire, FD.


I'm not talking about Hitler. If Nazis decided Hitler was God's messenger, would you suddenly be obligued to defend them from "unfair" criticism?

Quote:
Again, comparing apples and oranges, FD.  Tsk, tsk.


Why are they so different?
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #14 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 12:40pm
 
Why can't we have a section on Judaisam?
Or are you too politically correct for that Freediver?

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