Australian Politics Forum - Rudd smacked down on Bible verse

stryder

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #135 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:10pm

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:05pm:

stryder wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 9:50pm:

Amazing not so long ago he had a position quite contary to it, I WONDER WHAT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES HAS MADE THIS CHANGE OF MIND, Grin

I do remember him saying it was personal.

Yeah it is, Rudd flipflops and changes his mind and some principles and beliefs along the way to often just to suit the event or moment.

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« Last Edit: Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:18pm by stryder »

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stryder

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #136 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:11pm

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:05pm:

stryder wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 9:50pm:

Amazing not so long ago he had a position quite contary to it, I WONDER WHAT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES HAS MADE THIS CHANGE OF MIND, Grin

I do remember him saying it was personal.

Yeah it is, Rudd flipflops and changes his mind and some principles and beliefs along the way to often just to suit the event or moment.

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« Last Edit: Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:16pm by stryder »

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rabbitoh07

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #137 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:36pm

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 8:37pm:

The small details of Christianity are up for debate and always will be. Christians will always have disagreements about one thing or the other and there will never be total conformity on all matters. But removing Christ from Christianity is like saying you are an atheist that believes in god. There are some things that simply define what something is and once you change that core foundation it is no longer the same. It is a bit rich when non-Christians tell Christians that Christianity can be anything you want it to be. Without Christ, it is no longer Christianity.

Christ never said anything against gay marriage.

He said the exact opposite. He said that we should love each other and treat others as we would have them treat ourselves.

A homophobic bigot cannot be a true Christian.

If you want to call Rudd a hypocrite for claiming to be Christian and then treat it asylum seekers in a very un-Christian way - you would be correct. He is as big a hypocrite as Abbott is on that matter.

But he got it right on QandA about gay marriage.

You can tell he got it right because all the bigoted hypocrites like Longy have been squealing like stuck piggies over 9 pages of this thread.

Hypocrites like Longy always whinge loudest when their hypocrisy is shown up for all to see.

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« Last Edit: Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:44pm by rabbitoh07 »

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Quantum

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #138 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:43pm

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 9:30pm:

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 8:24pm:

Now his "I'm a committed Christian" is itself coming across as nothing but a vote finder.

I have rarely ever heard him say that and I don't consider it important anyway. This is a secular country with a secular government. Religion should be kept out of politics.

"Marriage" as we know it here today is a secular institution, not a religious one, only useful to the government for taxation purposes and economic management. It's just semantics. It's like going to CentreLink or the ATO and changing your name but having the same Customer Reference or Tax File numbers. You are still the same person but with a different name. It's the same with "gay marriage." It's just a name for something. It's not like the secular concept of "marriage" has to be kosher or halal, that somehow your body is rendered unclean if you lived in a secular society where a gay couple called their relationship a "gay marriage." It doesn't say anywhere in the Gospels that Christians should be making laws in a secular society.

If your name was Matthew, would you mind if I called you Matt or Matty? If your name was John, would you mind if I called you Johnny or Jonathan?

Look at it this way. You are not being forced into a gay marriage. You are not being forced into sinning. This is not like what happened when Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed a pig in the Jewish temple and triggered the Maccabean revolt. Gay marriage isn't anything close to a desecration of the Holy of Holies. Someone else's gay marriage is not a desecration of your heart and mind. Someone else's sin doesn't make you unclean.

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 8:24pm:

Many Christians would rather vote for an agnostic or an atheist than someone who tries to win votes by holding a Bible in their hand when they don't believe the thing anyway.

Kevin Rudd's personal religious beliefs are irrelevant. What matters are his policies. We either vote for that or we don't.

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 8:37pm:

The small details of Christianity are up for debate and always will be. Christians will always have disagreements about one thing or the other and there will never be total conformity on all matters. But removing Christ from Christianity is like saying you are an atheist that believes in god. There are some things that simply define what something is and once you change that core foundation it is no longer the same. It is a bit rich when non-Christians tell Christians that Christianity can be anything you want it to be. Without Christ, it is no longer Christianity.

As the rabbis would say, the Torah is not in heaven. God isn't here to tell us what a tradition says, so we have to decide. Some groups have dedicated people for that, while for others it's a free-for-all and a layperson is good enough. Someone has to sit in Moses' seat.

Again, you are missing the point. This is not about gay marriage. It is kind of not even about religion and politics exactly. What it is about though is Kevin standing by Christian values, calling himself a committed Christian, doing press interview one after another on the church steps, then doing a u-turn on much of what he once said he was on about. His argument on Monday is not consistent with what he was saying six years ago. You now saying;

"Kevin Rudd's personal religious beliefs are irrelevant. What matters are his policies. We either vote for that or we don't."

is ignoring the fact that he has gone to much effort to win that Christian vote by putting on a show. He is the one who made his personal religious beliefs relevant years ago.

Is recent months we have seen Kevin go for the left wing Gay vote, as well as the extreme right wing stop the boats vote, all the while trying to keep the Christian vote. Is it a wonder his polls are in the shape they are?

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rabbitoh07

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #139 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:47pm

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:43pm:

Again, you are missing the point. This is not about gay marriage. It is kind of not even about religion and politics exactly. What it is about though is Kevin standing by Christian values, calling himself a committed Christian, doing press interview one after another on the church steps, then doing a u-turn on much of what he once said he was on about. His argument on Monday is not consistent with what he was saying six years ago.

Yes - this is about Christian values.

And Christian values were exactly what Rudd displayed on Monday night when he slapped down the bigoted Pastor.

THere is nothing "un-Christian" in believing that all people should be treated with dignity and respect.

That is pretty much the epitome of Christianity isn't it?

Un-Christian bigots like the Pastor on QandA deserved to be slapped down for their un-Christian discrimination of their fellow men.

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longweekend58

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #140 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:49pm

rabbitoh07 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 7:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 12:34pm:

Jesus said that He absolutely supported the law and the Prophets which both unequivocally condemned homosexuality. To claim that Jesus was pro-gay is absurd. Any student of the bible would conclude the exact opposite. and obviously by extension He would oppose gay marriage.

Yet Ephesians 2:15 says of Jesus:
He rendered the Law inoperative, along with its commandments and regulations, thus creating in himself one new humanity from the two, thereby making peace,

Jesus never said we cant eat pelicans
Jesus never said that we can't plant two different crops in the same field
Jesus never said that we can't wear garments made of two different kinds of thread
Jesus never said that we must stone adulterers to death
Jesus never said that menstruating women are unclean

And Jesus never said there was anything wrong with gay marriage.
He said the exact opposite really.
He said we should love each over and treat others as we would have them treat ourselves.

I think Satan has entered your posts.
They are complete crap.

an argument from silence is the weakest possible. And the opposite of not opposing is SUPPORTING. Jesus never supported homosexuality and obviously not gay marriage. What a daft argument!

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John Smith

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #141 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:51pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:49pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 7:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 12:34pm:

Jesus said that He absolutely supported the law and the Prophets which both unequivocally condemned homosexuality. To claim that Jesus was pro-gay is absurd. Any student of the bible would conclude the exact opposite. and obviously by extension He would oppose gay marriage.

Yet Ephesians 2:15 says of Jesus:
He rendered the Law inoperative, along with its commandments and regulations, thus creating in himself one new humanity from the two, thereby making peace,

Jesus never said we cant eat pelicans
Jesus never said that we can't plant two different crops in the same field
Jesus never said that we can't wear garments made of two different kinds of thread
Jesus never said that we must stone adulterers to death
Jesus never said that menstruating women are unclean

And Jesus never said there was anything wrong with gay marriage.
He said the exact opposite really.
He said we should love each over and treat others as we would have them treat ourselves.

I think Satan has entered your posts.
They are complete crap.

an argument from silence is the weakest possible. And the opposite of not opposing is SUPPORTING. Jesus never supported homosexuality and obviously not gay marriage. What a daft argument!

I've never claimed to oppose Manchester United, does that mean I support them?

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longweekend58

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #142 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:53pm

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 8:02pm:

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

My disappointment is in someone who claims to be a committed Christian, but clearly forgot what the gospel is actually about. Not everything is about politics.

The gospel isn't about being anti-homosexual. Kevin didn't forget that.

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

His answer wasn't actually very good. The question was as to how Christians can know what he believes when he has changed his position on many things.

You've obviously never had a real discussion about "homosexuality" with a real homosexual and never been told that homosexuality was not a choice, but that you were born with it. I understand Kevin's views because I went through that same journey. I started with the idea that homosexuality was "unnatural" and that it was something to condemn. But after reading a guy's protestations on another message board about the idea that homosexuality was a choice, I had to reconsider that view.

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

The answer he gave only supported this doubt that many Christians have about him. What does he actually believe as a Christian when he doesn't believe the bible

That's between him and God.

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

and he doesn't hold to Christ as the centre of the gospel.

The Gospels don't record Jesus as saying much about homosexuality, if anything at all. If being a follower of Christ is about being like Jesus and being "covered in the dust of your rabbi," then being anti-homosexual isn't part of it -- not according to the Gospel accounts anyway. What Paul says about it is secondary to what Jesus said.

what makes you think that because it isn't his choice that that suddenly makes it right? Forget homosexuality and tell me how being born a klepto or a pedo or a sociopath or a violent person or all those other behaviours are OKAY because they are born with them. That argument is bogus. Many of us struggle with urges drives and weaknesses everyday but we don't use the excuse that we were 'born with it'.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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rabbitoh07

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #143 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:53pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:49pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 7:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 12:34pm:

Jesus said that He absolutely supported the law and the Prophets which both unequivocally condemned homosexuality. To claim that Jesus was pro-gay is absurd. Any student of the bible would conclude the exact opposite. and obviously by extension He would oppose gay marriage.

Yet Ephesians 2:15 says of Jesus:
He rendered the Law inoperative, along with its commandments and regulations, thus creating in himself one new humanity from the two, thereby making peace,

Jesus never said we cant eat pelicans
Jesus never said that we can't plant two different crops in the same field
Jesus never said that we can't wear garments made of two different kinds of thread
Jesus never said that we must stone adulterers to death
Jesus never said that menstruating women are unclean

And Jesus never said there was anything wrong with gay marriage.
He said the exact opposite really.
He said we should love each over and treat others as we would have them treat ourselves.

I think Satan has entered your posts.
They are complete crap.

an argument from silence is the weakest possible. And the opposite of not opposing is SUPPORTING. Jesus never supported homosexuality and obviously not gay marriage. What a daft argument!

What Jesus did say was that we should love each other and treat others as we would have them treat ourselves.

How does this teaching fit in with your stance as a homophobic bigot?

Why do you hold such un-Chistian views against your fellow men?

Why are you arguing directly against Jesus' teachings?

And why can't you get your story straight?

First you told us that:
Jesus said that He absolutely supported the law and the Prophets which both unequivocally condemned homosexuality

Now you tell us:
those old testament laws do not apply any more

The only thing worse than a homophobic bigot, is an homophobic bigot who displays his ignorance with stupid contradictory statements

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longweekend58

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #144 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:54pm

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 8:02pm:

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

My disappointment is in someone who claims to be a committed Christian, but clearly forgot what the gospel is actually about. Not everything is about politics.

The gospel isn't about being anti-homosexual. Kevin didn't forget that.

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

His answer wasn't actually very good. The question was as to how Christians can know what he believes when he has changed his position on many things.

You've obviously never had a real discussion about "homosexuality" with a real homosexual and never been told that homosexuality was not a choice, but that you were born with it. I understand Kevin's views because I went through that same journey. I started with the idea that homosexuality was "unnatural" and that it was something to condemn. But after reading a guy's protestations on another message board about the idea that homosexuality was a choice, I had to reconsider that view.

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

The answer he gave only supported this doubt that many Christians have about him. What does he actually believe as a Christian when he doesn't believe the bible

That's between him and God.

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

and he doesn't hold to Christ as the centre of the gospel.

The Gospels don't record Jesus as saying much about homosexuality, if anything at all. If being a follower of Christ is about being like Jesus and being "covered in the dust of your rabbi," then being anti-homosexual isn't part of it -- not according to the Gospel accounts anyway. What Paul says about it is secondary to what Jesus said.

The Bible is either the Word of God or it is not. You either believe it all or you believe none of it. If you want to pick and choose what you believe then the Bible becomes worthless to you.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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philperth2010

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #145 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:55pm

So the argument from the faithful is we should not afford homosexuals the legal right to marry because of a text that was written over 2000 years ago and is open to interpretation.....How about we concern ourselves with people who are affected by this bigotry and not with trying to interpret fairy tales to suit our agenda!!!

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Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population.
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rabbitoh07

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #146 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:57pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:53pm:

Forget homosexuality and tell me how being born a klepto or a pedo or a sociopath or a violent person or all those other behaviours are OKAY because they are born with them.

Cory Bernardi!?!?!?

Is that YOU!?!?!?

Should we call you Senator Longweekend58?

Good luck on Saturday Mr Bernardi.

I hope some people vote for you even though you are a homophobic bigot

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John Smith

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #147 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:57pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:53pm:

Forget homosexuality and tell me how being born a klepto or a pedo or a sociopath or a violent person or all those other behaviours are OKAY because they are born with them. That argument is bogus. Many of us struggle with urges drives and weaknesses everyday but we don't use the excuse that we were 'born with it'.

so which of those do you struggle with? pedo? klepto? socio?

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longweekend58

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Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse
Reply #148 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:57pm

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 8:37pm:

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 8:15pm:

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:25am:

The only person bending the bible is Rudd, and most Christians know that.

The Bible is the Bible. It is open to interpretation. Just because someone has a different interpretation to you doesn't mean he's bending the Bible. I take it you believe in the Five Solas.

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:25am:

The bible is like any other topic; it has a mainstream view, then it has many smaller alternative views. Does every scientist believe in climate change? Does every scientist believe that vaccinations are safe? Does every scientist believe that fluoride in water is good for you? No matter the topic, there will always be someone who has a different opinion. Usually most people hold to the mainstream view that the majority of experts support.

Guess what? Mainstream Christianity goes against the majority of the world's rabbis when it comes to the question of whether Jesus is the messiah, and whether we have a triune God or not, and early Christianity arose from a Jewish context. Many of the things Jesus said (in the Synoptic Gospels) had a basis in Pharisaic and later, Rabbinical Judaism.

Just because a view is or becomes mainstream doesn't mean it's right. The reason why we support the mainstream is not because a concept is right, but because avoiding disunity is more important than being right.

Have you ever heard of the Jewish teaching that "the Torah is not in heaven?"

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:25am:

Rudd totally missed what Paul was saying, but since Rudd also missed what the gospel is on about in his next sentence that is hardly surprising.

No, I don't think Rudd missed what the gospel was about and it isn't about being anti-homosexual.

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:25am:

He is clearly trying to walk a line of saying "I'm a Christian" while grabbing votes from the non Christians as well. And isn't that what the real question was about?

I think Kevin's change of heart toward homosexuals was personal, just like it was for me.

Quantum wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:25am:

It had nothing to do with gay marriage, but instead was about Christians in Australia not sure anymore on what he actually believes. He says one thing, but he also says and does another and people are now confused on where he stands. His answer on Monday only highlighted these two sides of Kevin. Until Monday he seemed like a Christian trying to win the non Christian vote. After Q&A he seems like a non Christian trying to keep the Christian vote by simply saying "I'm a committed Christian, I just don't follow Christ or believe the bible". His response would have lost him as many votes as he picked up.

If Christians lose confidence in Kevin then so be it. I commend him for having the courage to "come out of the closet," going against the beliefs of the majority of Christians. Didn't Jesus say, "judge not and you will not be judged?"

The small details of Christianity are up for debate and always will be. Christians will always have disagreements about one thing or the other and there will never be total conformity on all matters. But removing Christ from Christianity is like saying you are an atheist that believes in god. There are some things that simply define what something is and once you change that core foundation it is no longer the same. It is a bit rich when non-Christians tell Christians that Christianity can be anything you want it to be. Without Christ, it is no longer Christianity.

Absolutely!! And what Rudd said was to remove Christ from his belief which renders it worthless. There will always be debate about theology and doctrine but on the major point there is no liberty at all. If you do not believe that Christ is the centre of the Bible and God's Son then your faith is false. IN fact the Bible itself says as much.

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John Smith Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 77089 Gender:	Re: Rudd smacked down on Bible verse Reply #149 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:58pm rabbitoh07 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 10:57pm: Cory Bernardi!?!?!? Is that YOU!?!?!? Should we call you Senator Longweekend58? Good luck on Saturday Mr Bernardi. I hope some people vote for you even though you are a homophobic bigot certainly sounds very similar.
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