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Poll Poll
Question: Should Israel Take Compensation From Germany

No. Nazis stole stuff fair and square    
  0 (0.0%)
No. It seems too Islamic    
  0 (0.0%)
Yes. People have a right to compensation    
  5 (83.3%)
No. Jews should let bygones be bygones    
  1 (16.7%)
No. People should be free to persecute minorities    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 6
« Last Modified by: True Colours on: Aug 2nd, 2013 at 4:05pm »

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Muhammed the thief (Read 35549 times)
freediver
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Muhammed the thief
Jul 20th, 2013 at 9:30am
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravan_raids

The Caravan raids refer to a series of raids which Muhammad and his Companions participated in. The raids were generally offensive[1] and carried out to gather intelligence or seize the trade goods of caravans financed by the Quraysh, (such thefts were rationalized as being legitimate actions because many Muslims left their possessions behind when they migrated from Mecca).[2][3] The Muslims declared that the raids were justified and that God gave them permission to defend against the Meccans' persecution of Muslims.[4][5]

Background

The Islamic prophet Muhammad's followers suffered from poverty after fleeing persecution in Mecca and migrating with Muhammad to Medina. Their Meccan persecutors seized their wealth and belongings left behind in Mecca.[citation needed]

Beginning in January 623, some of the Muslims resorted to the tradition of raiding the Meccan caravans that traveled along the eastern coast of the Red Sea from Mecca to Syria.[citation needed] Communal life was essential for survival in desert conditions, as people needed support against the harsh environment and lifestyle. The tribal grouping was thus encouraged by the need to act as a unit. This unity was based on the bond of kinship by blood.[clarification needed][6] People of Arabia were either nomadic or sedentary, the former constantly traveling from one place to another seeking water and pasture for their flocks, while the latter settled and focused on trade and agriculture. The survival of nomads (or bedouins) was also partially dependent on raiding caravans or oases; thus they saw this as no crime.[7][8]

Earliest Quran verse about fighting

According to William Montgomery Watt, the Quran verse 22:29[9] was the earliest verse commanding Muslims to fight. However, he says there was a "disinclination" among the Muslims to follow the command to fight, but they were given an incentive, after the Muslims were told that God prefers fighters to those who sit still and remain at home, and that for fighters there is a reward in paradise (Jannah).[10]

...

Permission to fight

Up to this point the Muhammad told people to endure insults and abuse.[clarification needed] Because of being persecuted and economically-uprooted by their Meccan persecutors, Muhammad claimed that God gave him permission to fight the Meccans.

The permission to fight was given in many stages during Muhammad's prophetic mission:

* At first, the Muslims were only allowed to fight the Meccan Quraysh, because they were the first to oppress the Muslims in Mecca. Muslims were allowed to seize their goods, but not those tribes which the Muhammad made a treaty with.
* Then Muhammad and the Muslims were allowed to fight pagan tribes that allied with the Quraysh.
* Then Muhammad and the Muslims were allowed to fight the Jewish tribes of Medina, when these tribes violated the Constitution of Medina and their pact with the Muslims.
* Subsequently, Muhammad and the Muslims were allowed to fight the "People of the Book" (Christian and Jews). If the People of the Book paid a poll tax (jizya), then the Muslims were forbidden to fight them.
* Muslims were required to make peace with any polytheist, Jews or Christians who embraced Islam, and were required to embrace them as fellow Muslims.[43]
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #1 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 11:09am
 
Myth- Prophet Muhammad Launched Raids on Innocent Merchants

Did Prophet Muhammad attack innocent trade caravans to loot them?


During the time of the Prophet, Arabs largely earned their living by trade with nations in the north then known as Syria, now divided into many smaller countries. The trade routes from Mecca towards north passed near Medina. Arabs also conducted local trade from one town to another.

Critics allege that Prophet Muhammad began raiding the camel caravans of Arab traders travelling between Mecca and other Arab towns and oases. Some critics claim that Prophet Muhammad organized as many as eighty-two raids, personally leading over twenty, and cite the Qur’an 2:217 [1] as the “justification.”

We begin by presenting the full verse in question: “Fighting is ordained for you, though it is repugnant to you; but it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you like a thing while it is bad for you. Allah knows all things, and you know not.” [2]

In this verse, the Holy Qur’an is reminds Muslims that, due to the Meccan’s massive hostilities against them, their thriteen years of non-violent resistance in Mecca and peaceful emigration 240 miles away unfortunately has not changed the hostile behavior of the Meccans. Therefore, the Muslims should be ready to fight even though they do not wish to fight. Of course, the Muslims did not wish to fight. That is exactly why they bore persecution patiently for thirteen years and migrated to a different region altogether—to avoid fighting. The verse is a commentary on human nature. These Muslims had suffered for over a decade in Mecca, left all their homes, properties, belongings, and ancestries to emigrate, all for the sake of peace. Now, war pursued them once more. It is completely reasonable to believe that some Muslims were tired of the persecution, suffering, and running. They simply wanted peace—but the Qur’an admonished them to remain firm because God knew the consequences of their acquiescence to Meccan aggression. Commenting on this situation, the Prophet Muhammad reassured the Muslims, “O ye Muslims! you should not desire to fight the enemy, and remain desirous of the peace and security of God.  If however, contrary to your desire, you are compelled to fight an enemy then demonstrate steadfastness.” [3]

This is a universal principle. Sovereign governments throughout history and even today enact mandatory drafts to ensure that their nation remains secure against attack. Critics who find objection with this verse should also declare that all nations that obligate fighting for the security of their citizens are behaving unjustly.

Turning specifically to the issue of the alleged plundering raids, history records elicit facts contrary to what critics fabricate:

Āṣim bin Kulaib relates from his father that an Anṣārī Companion narrates that, we set out on a Ghazwah with the Holy Prophet.  On one occasion, the people were struck by severe hunger and became very much distressed (since they had no provisions with them).  Upon this they caught a few goats from a flock, slaughtered them and began cooking them.  Our pots were boiling with their meat when the Holy Prophet arrived.  The Holy Prophet immediately upset our pots with his bow and angrily began grinding the pieces of meat beneath his feet and exclaimed, ‘Plunder is no better than carrion.’” [4]

History is clear. Let alone during times of prosperity, even in the face of severe hunger, Prophet Muhammad forbade plunder of any sort. In another famous tradition, Prophet Muhammad commanded the Muslims,

O ye Muslims! go forth in the name of Allāh and perform Jihād with the intention of protecting religion.  But beware! do not embezzle the wealth of spoils and do not deceive a people.  Do not mutilate the enemy dead, do not kill women and children [5], nor religious recluses[6]; and do not kill the elderly.  Create peace in the land, and treat the people with benevolence, for surely, Allāh loves the benevolent.” [7]

Once again, Prophet Muhammad, in word and deed, explains that the purpose of fighting is to protect religious freedom—not wealth, power, or terror. He specifically forbade Muslims from harming innocents, condemned violence, and implored benevolence.

Islamic history scholar Hadrat Mirza Bashir Ahmad details the purpose of the raids that were undertaken by the Prophet, and demonstrates that they were not unjust, but a just form of defense that nations even today employ.

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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #2 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 11:40am
 
So you agree that Muhammed carried out all those raids? What exactly are you disagreeing with?

Quote:
O ye Muslims! go forth in the name of Allāh and perform Jihād with the intention of protecting religion.  But beware! do not embezzle the wealth of spoils and do not deceive a people.


Other Muslims have explained that deception is a natural part of this Jihad, and that it was permitted to take all the opponents possessions as spoils of war. Can you explain this apparent contradiction?

Quote:
Once again, Prophet Muhammad, in word and deed, explains that the purpose of fighting is to protect religious freedom—not wealth, power, or terror. He specifically forbade Muslims from harming innocents, condemned violence, and implored benevolence.


So they robbed caravans in the name of freedom of religion?
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #3 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:00pm
 
The more I look into this, the more I think Islam's rise was due to a combination of brutal violence and complete lack of reason. It is like the stereotypical South American drug lord being the scariest and most violent to fight his way to the top. If a person is genuinely crazy and dangerous, you give them a wide berth, and this is the image Muhammed projected. While it may seem ludicrous from our position of safety, it would be quite a thing to face if such a man was actually in a position to slaughter every man in your tribe, take all your possessions and take every woman as a sex slave. What is even scarier is that modern educated people so readily adopt all the crazy excuses and justifications for Muhammed's brutality and violence. The mind boggles at what they could use Muhammedan 'logic' to justify today, if they were given the chance.
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #4 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:01pm
 
the rest of the article:

Quote:
The fourth strategy [to protect Muslims from the mischief of idolaters] employed by the Holy Prophet was that he began to intercept the trade caravans of the Quraish which travelled from Makkah to Syria passing by Madīnah en route.  The reason being that firstly, these caravans would spark a fire of enmity against the Muslims wherever they travelled.  It is obvious that for a seed of enmity to be sown in the environs of Madīnah was extremely dangerous for the Muslims.  Secondly, these caravans would always be armed and everyone can appreciate that for such caravans to pass by so close to Madīnah was not empty of danger.  Thirdly, the livelihood of the Quraish primarily depended on trade.  Therefore, in these circumstances, the most definitive and effective means by which the Quraish could be subdued, their cruelties could be put to an end and they could be pressed to reconciliation, was by obstructing their trade route.  As such, history testifies to the fact that among the factors which ultimately compelled the Quraish to incline towards reconciliation, the interception of these trade caravans played an extremely pivotal role.  Hence, this was an extremely sagacious strategy, which yielded fruits of success at the appropriate time.  Fourthly, the revenue from these caravans of the Quraish was mostly spent in efforts to eliminate Islām.  Rather, some caravans were even sent for the sole purpose that their entire profit may be utilized against the Muslims.  In this case, every individual can understand that the interception of these caravans, was in its own right, an absolutely legitimate motive. Various prejudiced Christian historians … have raised the allegation that, God-forbid, the Holy Prophet and his Companions would set out for the purpose of plundering the caravans of the Quraish.  We would like to inquire of these people who are an embodiment of justice and equity, that do your nations, who you consider to be the epitomes of civility and nobility, not obstruct the trade routes of enemy nations?  When they receive news that a trade vessel belonging to such and such enemy nation is passing by so and so place, do they not immediately dispatch a naval company in its pursuit so as to destroy it, or employ a strategy to subdue it and take possession of its wealth?  Then for this reason can your leaders be labelled as robbers, pillagers and plunderers?  Verily, if the Muslims intercepted the caravans of the Quraish, its purpose was not to take possession of the wealth of their caravans.  Rather, military tactics demanded that the trade route of the Quraish be obstructed, because there was no better means by which they could be brought to their senses and pushed to reconciliation.  To assert that in the interception of these caravans, the Muslims were given teachings of pillage and plunder, is a grave injustice and far from equity. [8]

The above-mentioned authentic references should clarify to any fair-minded reader that Prophet Muhammad did not engage in any injustice regarding war. He certainly did not in any capacity raid innocent trade caravans. On the contrary, he demonstrated extreme restraint and benevolence.
- See more at: http://www.muhammadfactcheck.org/muhammadfactcheck/6-prophet-muhammad-launched-raids-on-innocent-merchants/#sthash.kb0DQRIG.dpuf


When wars are started, bad things happen. Yet the greatest war crime of all - the "supreme crime" - as Justice Jackson stated at the Nuremburg war trial - is the act of aggressive war itself. All other war crimes spawn from, and are secondary to this. So when war is forced upon you - as it was to The Prophet, you don't take up the fight with kid gloves. You seek to destroy your enemy. About the first thing you seek to interrupt and destroy is the enemies economy, to deny them the wealth and resources they need to wage war on you.

Still, islam was the first religion/legal system that laid down some ground rule for lawful combat: no killing of non-combatants, no disproportionality, and no random destruction of property.
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #5 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:08pm
 
Quote:
Still, islam was the first religion/legal system that laid down some ground rule for lawful combat: no killing of non-combatants, no disproportionality, and no random destruction of property.


Grin

The "no desruction of property" rule was to increase the spoils of war right?

What article is that the "rest" of?

Are you saying that these caravan raids were in the context of an actual war? I have not seen any mention of it. Most Muslims use past persecution to justify the theft, not the context of war.

Is Islam always at war, by default, until Muslims decide they have obtained revenge for every perceived past injustice and destroyed every possible "seed of enmity" towards them?
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #6 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:27pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

When wars are started, bad things happen.....




Yet, ISLAMISTS [moslems] throughout history have always whined and whined and whined, about their own 'victimhood', when ISLAMISTS [moslems] suffer, from the conflicts which ISLAMISTS [moslems] initiated - as a consequence of the ISLAMISTS [moslems] own intended relio-political conquest of other peoples.

e,g,
Syria, today.
Thailand, today.
Burma, today.
and on, and on, and on....


Yet gandalf claims to understand; "When wars are started, bad things happen....."

Bad things are going to happen, gandalf.
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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #7 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:30pm
 
Particularly when Muhammed was involved.
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #8 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:37pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:08pm:
Quote:
Still, islam was the first religion/legal system that laid down some ground rule for lawful combat: no killing of non-combatants, no disproportionality, and no random destruction of property.


Grin

The "no desruction of property" rule was to increase the spoils of war right?

What article is that the "rest" of?

Are you saying that these caravan raids were in the context of an actual war? I have not seen any mention of it. Most Muslims use past persecution to justify the theft, not the context of war.

Is Islam always at war, by default, until Muslims decide they have obtained revenge for every perceived past injustice and destroyed every possible "seed of enmity" towards them?


If your smart enough to find a story about Prophet Mohamed which 99% of muslims have not heard of before or studied then surely you can research your own questions.
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #9 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:42pm
 
Do you agree that Muhammed engaged in highway robbery to finance his political ambitions? (if I can google your answer please let me know)
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #10 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:42pm:
Do you agree that Muhammed engaged in highway robbery to finance his political ambitions? (if I can google your answer please let me know)


Prophet Mohammed doesn't speak from his own desires, everything was revealed to him by his creator.

Mohammed wouldn't do a action contrary to islam, and I support whatever was revealed to him.

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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #11 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:57pm
 
Are you trying to say I need to google your answer?

Are you saying that highway robbery is not contrary to Islam?
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #12 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 1:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:57pm:
Are you trying to say I need to google your answer?


No, he's asking you to substantiate your own bullshit accusations.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #13 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 1:06pm
 
Do you want me to substantiate my claims that Muhammed engaged in banditry?  If not, which claims do you think are BS?
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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #14 - Jul 20th, 2013 at 1:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 1:06pm:
Do you want me to substantiate my claims that Muhammed engaged in banditry?


yup.

freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 1:06pm:
which claims do you think are BS?


There's quite a selection there - including:

freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:08pm:
Most Muslims use past persecution to justify the theft


freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:00pm:
Islam's rise was due to a combination of brutal violence and complete lack of reason



freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:00pm:
If a person is genuinely crazy and dangerous, you give them a wide berth, and this is the image Muhammed projected



freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:00pm:
modern educated people so readily adopt all the crazy excuses and justifications for Muhammed's brutality and violence.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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