Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 ... 21
Send Topic Print
Executing prisoners of war (Read 97433 times)
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47364
At my desk.
Executing prisoners of war
Jul 18th, 2013 at 11:54am
 
Muhammed oversaw the execution of somewhere between 600 and 900 prisoners of war after a battle against a Jewish tribe. Muslims often attempt to wash Muhammed's hands of this incident by claiming that Muhammed was acting from a position of weakness and had no choice but to let another powerful tribe pass judgement, that the Jews were judged by a fellow Jew according to Jewish law, and that Muhammed was "bound" by his agreement to accept the judgement. For example:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 11:30pm:
Quote:
The Prophet Muhammad then had to deal with the 700 prisoners of war from Banu Qurayza. He did not make any decision regarding them, but left it to an arbitrator, Sa’d bin Muadh, who was an ally of Banu Qurazya and the chief of a major Medinian tribe.

Sa’d took a pledge from both sides—the Prophet and the leaders of Banu Qurayza—that his verdict would be binding. Sa’d’s final verdict was that those who fought against the Muslims should be killed, and that the women and children should be taken as prisoners. This judgment was applied in accordance with the voluntarily agreement of the Jews to be bound by the final verdict.

Banu Qurayza unfortunately faced this harsh punishment due to their very serious act of treason, which entirely undermined the fragile stability of the community. In fact, the Jews did not object to this judgment, as Sa’ad’s decision was based on Jewish law, as expounded in the Torah:

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labour and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engaged you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. (Deuteronomy 20:10-16)

A Hindu writer, Nadhuran, after a detailed study of the historical account and the judgment made upon Banu Qurayza, concluded: “…though it seems harsh, Sa’d’s verdict was fair. First, this verdict accorded with [the Jews’] own laws. Second, the verdict was made by a mediator who was their own ally and they themselves had chosen him to arbitrate between them and Muhammad.”

The prolific author and scholar of comparative religions, Karen Armstrong, states “… It is, however, important to note that the Qurayzah were not killed on religious or racial grounds.  None of the other Jewish tribes in the oasis either objected or attempted to intervene, clearly regarding it as a purely political and tribal matter… The men of Qurayzah were executed for treason.  The seventeen other Jewish tribes of Medina remained in the oasis, living on friendly terms with the Muslims for many years, and the Qur’an continued to insist that Muslims remember their spiritual kinship with the People of the Book…”

Therefore, it is clear from the detailed context of this incident that the charge of ethnic cleansing or genocide of the Jews of Medina is a baseless accusation.

http://mercyprophet.org/mul/node/3319


Still, the fact remains that Muhammed oversaw the execution of prisoners of war, and this example has been used by Muslims throughout history to execute other prisoners of war.

Most historians see this not as an attempt by Muhammed to settle the issue from a position of weakness, but as a vulgar display of strength and power to frighten other Jews into submission. Rather than letting the Jews choose their own fate, Muhammed chose the method of judgement to allow him to execute the prisoners without appearing to contradict his earlier more lenient examples. For example:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Demise_of_the_Banu_Qurayza

In all accounts, the appointed arbitrator was Sa'd ibn Mua'dh, a leading man among the Aws. During the Battle of the Trench, he had been one of Muhammad's emissaries to the Quarayza (see above)[54] and now was dying from a wound he had received later in the battle.[49][50][51][56] When Sa'd arrived, his fellow Aws pleaded for leniency towards the Qurayza and on his request pledged that they would abide by his decision.[12] He then decreed the sentence according to the Torah, declaring that "the men should be killed, the property divided, and the women and children taken as captives". Muhammad approved of the ruling, calling it similar to "God's" judgment.[49][50][51][56] Chirāgh ʼAlī (1885) argues that this statement may have referred to "king" or "ruler" rather than God.[61]

Sa'd dismissed the pleas of the Aws, according to Watt because being close to death and concerned with his afterlife, he put what he considered "his duty to God and the Muslim community" before tribal allegiance.[11] Tariq Ramadan argues that Muhammad deviated from his earlier, more lenient treatment of prisoners as this was seen "as sign of weakness if not madness",[55] Peterson concurs that the Muslims wanted to deter future treachery by setting an example with severe punishment.[12] Lings reports that Sa'ad feared that if expelled, the Qurayza would join the Nadir in the fight against the Muslims.[16]
Back to top
« Last Edit: Feb 14th, 2014 at 1:38pm by polite_gandalf »  

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47364
At my desk.
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #1 - Jul 18th, 2013 at 11:56am
 
Stillman claims that Muhammad chose Sa'd so as not to pronounce the judgment himself, after the precedents he had set with the Banu Qaynuqa and the Banu Nadir: "Sa`d took the hint and condemned the adult males to death and the hapless women and children to slavery." Furthermore, Stillman infers from Abu Lubaba's gesture that Muhammad had decided the fate of the Qurayza even before their surrender.[30]

Ibn Ishaq describes the killing of the Banu Qurayza men as follows:
“      Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them. Huyayy was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope. When he saw the apostle he said, 'By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes God will be forsaken.' Then he went to the men and said, 'God's command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel.' Then he sat down and his head was struck off.[49][50][62]      ”

Several accounts note Muhammad's companions as executioners, Ali and Al-Zubayr in particular, and that each clan of the Aws was also charged with killing a group of Qurayza men.[28][52] Subhash Inamdar argues that this was done in order to avoid the risk of further conflicts between Muhammad and the Aws. According to Inamdar, Muhammad wanted to distance himself from the events and, had he been involved, he would have risked alienating some of the Aws.[52]



Additionally, the women and children were taken as slaves. Muslims often justify this as being "merciful" to the women, or standard practice. Muslims refuse to even acknowledge the enslavement as punishment, for example:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8th, 2013 at 11:35am:
freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2013 at 12:30pm:
It is a pretty simple topic. I say it is collective punishment because the collective was being punished for the actions of a few. You say it is not collective punishment because those scheming Jews had it coming.


The only people executed were those actively partaking in fighting against the muslims. The rest were spared. How exactly is it punishment for the actions of a few?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8th, 2013 at 10:11pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 8th, 2013 at 7:49pm:
That's one way of putting it. Another way is to say that they were punished for someone else's crime.


By enslavement? Here's the cold hard truth FD - the entire menfolk were dead - killed because they committed treason against their muslim allies. What then for the rest of the women and children? Leave them to till their own fields, defend themselves against armed enemies? Or they could have simply done what just about everyone else did at that time - put them all to the sword. Enslavement = protective custody, and it was standard practice throughout the region. However, under Muhammad, enslavement meant humane treatment, and the very real possibility of emancipation. Your claim that enslavement to the muslims meant serial rape is baseless and hogwash.


However, the reality is that Muhammed's solution of executing every single man was harsh even by tribal Arab standards:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Analysis

Aiming at placing the events in their historical context, Watt points to the "harsh political circumstances of that era"[11] and argues that the treatment of Qurayza was regular Arab practice.[81] Similar statements are made by Stillman,[30] Paret,[78] Lewis[82] and Rodinson.[66] On the other hand, Michael Lecker and Irving Zeitlin consider the events "unprecedented in the Arab peninsula - a novelty" and state that "prior to Islam, the annihilation of an adversary was never an aim of war."[64][83] Similar statements are made by Hirschberg[84] and Baron.[85]



Muhammed himself took one of the captured women as slaves.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Demise_of_the_Banu_Qurayza

Mohammad collected one-fifth of the booty, the amount which then is paid as Islamic tax to be distributed to the poor and needy.[67]

As part of his share of the spoils, Muhammad selected one of the women, Rayhana, for himself and took her as part of his booty.[66] Muhammad offered to free and marry her and according to some sources she accepted his proposal, while according to others she rejected it and remained the Prophet's slave and concubine.[68] She is said to have later become a Muslim.[4]


Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47364
At my desk.
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #2 - Jul 18th, 2013 at 11:57am
 
Also, it is clear that enslavement was not the "only option" available to Muhammed. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Demise_of_the_Banu_Qurayza



Some of the women and children of the Banu Qurayza who were enslaved by the Muslims were later bought by Jews,[11] in particular the Banu Nadir. Peterson argues that this is because the Nadir felt responsible for the Qurayza's fate due to the role of their chieftain in the events.[12]


Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47364
At my desk.
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #3 - Jul 18th, 2013 at 4:40pm
 
It appears that the tribe that Muhammed had slaughtered did not actually attack Muhammed's army. They initially helped Muhammed in an earlier battle (battle of the trench), then started negotiating with the attackers. Muhammed responded by laying siege to the town, apparently at the request of the angel Gabriel. They surrendered unconditionally and Muhammed followed this up by having all of them executed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Battle_of_the_Trench

Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
True Colours
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2837
Gender: male
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #4 - Jul 19th, 2013 at 12:59am
 
Australia executed prisoners of war after WWII. As did the US, Britain, France and the USSR.



The men from the Qurayza tribe were executed according to the laws of the their own Torah because of the war crimes that they committed.

The violated the treaty that bound them to protect Madina. Instead of defending Madina, as they had promised, they actually attacked Madina from behind whilst the pagans of Mecca attacked from the other side.

Such treachery deserves the death penalty. The death penalty for treachery and treason is not an unusual thing. They only had themselves to blame.

They were punished for attacking Madina in violation of a treaty.

The US has executed Jews for less.

Quote:
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg


Julius Rosenberg (May 12, 1918 – June 19, 1953) and Ethel Greenglass Rosenberg (September 25, 1915[1] – June 19, 1953) were United States citizens convicted of conspiracy to commit espionage during a time of war, and executed. Their charges were related to the passing of information about the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union....

...Eyewitness testimony (as given by a newsreel report featured in the 1982 documentary film The Atomic Cafe) describes the circumstances of the Rosenbergs' death, noting that while Julius Rosenberg died after the first electric shock, his wife did not. After the normal course of three electric shocks, attendants removed the strapping and other equipment only to have doctors determine that Mrs. Rosenberg had not yet died (her heart was still beating). Two more electric shocks were applied, and at conclusion eyewitnesses reported, Bob Considine among them, that smoke rose from her head in the chamber.

-wikipedia
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47364
At my desk.
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #5 - Jul 19th, 2013 at 8:18am
 
Quote:
they actually attacked Madina from behind


How many Muslims died in this attack?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #6 - Jul 19th, 2013 at 11:55am
 
You are clearly making a supreme effort on this point FD - I give you credit for that at least. So much so that apparently 5 separate threads are needed for this one point.

Yet, for all the bluster, this still comes down to a simple issue: treachery is deemed to be a capital offense. Not surprisingly for a small nation with enemies all around. Drastic? Hell yes - but these were drastic times. Should the fact that they had surrendered make them immune to the law of the land? Of course not - why would it? Their treachery was still done.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47364
At my desk.
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #7 - Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:01pm
 
True Colours wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 12:59am:
Australia executed prisoners of war after WWII. As did the US, Britain, France and the USSR.
Quote:
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg


Julius Rosenberg (May 12, 1918 – June 19, 1953) and Ethel Greenglass Rosenberg (September 25, 1915[1] – June 19, 1953) were United States citizens convicted of conspiracy to commit espionage during a time of war, and executed. Their charges were related to the passing of information about the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union....

...Eyewitness testimony (as given by a newsreel report featured in the 1982 documentary film The Atomic Cafe) describes the circumstances of the Rosenbergs' death, noting that while Julius Rosenberg died after the first electric shock, his wife did not. After the normal course of three electric shocks, attendants removed the strapping and other equipment only to have doctors determine that Mrs. Rosenberg had not yet died (her heart was still beating). Two more electric shocks were applied, and at conclusion eyewitnesses reported, Bob Considine among them, that smoke rose from her head in the chamber.

-wikipedia


TC, do you really think that all the men who were executed, all the women who ended up as sex slaves, and even the children who ended up as slaves committed an equivalent crime? If not, why post this? Is this just a desperate attempt at moral equivalence?

Quote:
So much so that apparently 5 separate threads are needed for this one point.


We have a thread on collective punishment (2 if you count your thread on collective punishment that isn't actually about collective punishment). One thread on ethnic cleansing. And one thread on the execution of POWs. At the time I didn't really see it as collective punishment, as I was under the impression that all the men killed were combatants. I didn't realise at the time that many of the men who were killed were neutral or had actually helped Muhammed.

Quote:
Yet, for all the bluster, this still comes down to a simple issue: treachery is deemed to be a capital offense.


By who? Are you being treacherous now?

Quote:
Drastic? Hell yes - but these were drastic times.


So wars are not normally drastic times? Is there a special rule for prophets that they can stoop lower than every other leader?

Quote:
Should the fact that they had surrendered make them immune to the law of the land? Of course not - why would it? Their treachery was still done.


How about the fact that they never even attacked Muhammed in the first place? How about the fact that executing POWs was never "the law of the land" anyway? How about the fact that they actually helped Muhammed? How about the fact that very few of them were actually involved in the treachery that Muhammed had them slaughtered for?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Baronvonrort
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17472
Gender: male
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #8 - Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:33pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 8:18am:
Quote:
they actually attacked Madina from behind


How many Muslims died in this attack?


The Meccans went home because the Banu Qurayza would not let them in to attack Mohammad.

If the Banu Qurayza let the Meccans in to attack Mohammad Islam would have been buried in that trench.
Back to top
 

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #9 - Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:01pm:
We have a thread on collective punishment (2 if you count your thread on collective punishment that isn't actually about collective punishment). One thread on ethnic cleansing. And one thread on the execution of POWs.


= 4 "aren't muslims the most evil people in the world because of what Muhammad did to jews?!" threads.

Apparently the point becomes stronger the more threads we have on it.

freediver wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:01pm:
By who?


Jewish talmudic law as it happens.

freediver wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:01pm:
So wars are not normally drastic times?


Wars are drastic - I'm pretty sure that was my point.

freediver wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:01pm:
How about the fact that they never even attacked Muhammed in the first place?


conspired with her enemies - negotiating a possible second front to complement the current assault on Medina. Or in other words, breaking the covenant they were living under. Regardless of the right or wrong of this, it clearly presented an unacceptable threat to the muslim nation.

freediver wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:01pm:
How about the fact that they actually helped Muhammed?


They were hedging their bets. Whatever help they provided, it doesn't nullify the fact that they entered into negotiations with the enemy behind Muhammad's back.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
Baronvonrort
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17472
Gender: male
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #10 - Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:40pm
 
True Colours wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 12:59am:
The men from the Qurayza tribe were executed according to the laws of the their own Torah because of the war crimes that they committed.



Can you cite a link to the page of the torah to support your claim or like a typical muslim did you pluck that crap from your ass?

The book of Jihad by Ibn Nuhaas clearly states male prisoners of war are to be executed.
A thread on it here-
www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295682624

Back to top
 

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #11 - Jul 19th, 2013 at 3:00pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:40pm:
Can you cite a link to the page of the torah to support your claim


Baron the claim comes from the same sources that everyone has been using to bash islam on this topic. If you want to dismiss this, then you will have to also dismiss the whole beheading incident.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47364
At my desk.
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #12 - Jul 19th, 2013 at 3:02pm
 
Quote:
= 4 "aren't muslims the most evil people in the world because of what Muhammad did to jews?!" threads.


Sorry I keep forgetting that it is all about the Jews. Even when it isn't. Cunning eh?

Quote:
Jewish talmudic law as it happens.


This has a definition of treachery?

Quote:
Wars are drastic - I'm pretty sure that was my point.


Executing prisoners of war is usually frowned upon, even in drastic wars. Especially for your allies who helped you win an earlier war and never actually attacked you.

Quote:
conspired with her enemies - negotiating a possible second front to complement the current assault on Medina. Or in other words, breaking the covenant they were living under. Regardless of the right or wrong of this, it clearly presented an unacceptable threat to the muslim nation.


Every single one of them conspired?

Quote:
They were hedging their bets. Whatever help they provided, it doesn't nullify the fact that they entered into negotiations with the enemy behind Muhammad's back.


So they all deserved to get their heads chopped off?

Quote:
Baron the claim comes from the same sources that everyone has been using to bash islam on this topic. If you want to dismiss this, then you will have to also dismiss the whole beheading incident.


I have no doubt that Muslims use this as another BS excuse to justify the evil deeds of Muhammed. That is not the question though.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Baronvonrort
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17472
Gender: male
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #13 - Jul 19th, 2013 at 3:12pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 3:00pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:40pm:
Can you cite a link to the page of the torah to support your claim


Baron the claim comes from the same sources that everyone has been using to bash islam on this topic. If you want to dismiss this, then you will have to also dismiss the whole beheading incident.



Did you ignore this part gandalf?
Quote:
In reality, Deuteronomy 20:10:18 is not the law of the torah.....
www.wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza


Is Deuteronomy 20:10:18 found in the Torah or could it be in the buy-bull?

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy20:10-18&version=KJV

Show me where this verse is in the torah
Back to top
 

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
IP Logged
 
Datalife
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2405
Gender: male
Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #14 - Jul 19th, 2013 at 3:31pm
 
I am not sure what the argy bargy is about but I hope everyone is being careful not to judge by (hopefully upheld) standards of the modern enlightened west to wars and conflict and applying that to ancient and medieval times, cos it reads to me that is what is happening.

And those debating from both sides should not be surprised that rapes and mass or executions happen in most wars of all times, both condoned and extralegal.

In fact if I read this thread right, both sides of the "debate"
are being ridiculous in partisan defence of a favoured side/group/religion.  '

Back to top
« Last Edit: Jul 19th, 2013 at 3:46pm by Datalife »  

"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 21
Send Topic Print