Australian Politics Forum - Executing prisoners of war

freediver

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #75 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 10:39am

Quote:

Give me a break. When the US was attacked on 9/11, they responded by indiscriminately bombing an estimated 3000 Afghan civilians to smithereens.

This is similar to executing prisoners?

Quote:

Admittedly they weren't bound and beheaded,

Nor were they captives or prisoners, in any sense of the word.

What is the most recent example you can find that is actually similar to what Muhammed did?

What is the most recent similar example you can find that non-Muslims hold up as God's example for all humanity to follow?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #76 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 11:11am

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 10:39am:

This is similar to executing prisoners?

No its worse - both in its scale and its indiscriminate nature.

over 10 thousand men women and children killed in revenge for a crime they had nothing to do with. I suppose you could argue that the US was merely doing what was necessary to protect her interests - but you would have to say the same for Muhammad.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 10:39am:

What is the most recent example you can find that is actually similar to what Muhammed did?

There is none - obviously. Unless you can find me an example of the US literally under siege, surrounded by superior forces, fighting for its very survival, and threatened with the opening of a second front by traitors within its borders.

Yet what comparisons we have are far worse - of the US lashing out, indiscriminately killing civilians in the name of hegemonic/neo-imperialist greed. Nothing to do with any sort of existential threat - unless you define the US's existence as an aggressive, expansionist thug who will lash out indiscriminately at any lesser power standing up to its hegemony.

And its not just in response to terrorist attacks. How many Nicuraguans were slaughtered because they dared voted for the wrong guy? How many Vietnamese had to die because the US objected to a nationalist-unity government? etc etc.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #77 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 11:16am

Quote:

There is none - obviously. Unless you can find me an example of the US literally under siege, surrounded by superior forces, fighting for its very survival, and threatened with the opening of a second front by traitors within its borders.

I have already given you some examples. The US civil war is a good one, particularly given your apparent view that civil wars are not wars and POWs captured in civil wars and not POWs and can be executed en mass.

The Germans and Italians have also lost a few wars lately. There have been plenty of other examples since Muhammed's time. There is 1400 years of history there.

Quote:

over 10 thousand men women and children killed in revenge for a crime they had nothing to do with

You sure it was really about revenge?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #78 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 12:15pm

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 11:16am:

I have already given you some examples. The US civil war is a good one

No its not. The southern states had already seceded, so it was in all intents and purposes a war between two foreign powers. The correct analogy would be if a significant faction within either the confederate side, or the union side, conspired with the opposite side to open a new front against their own side.

But what is your point FD? That the Confederacy faced a similar dilemma to Muhammad, yet still refused to stoop to his level of moral depravity?

Here's the confederacy holding the moral high ground:

Fort Pillow Massacre:

Quote:

Both sides of the war reported that after the fort’s surviving garrison, most of it comprised of black soldiers and civilian workers, surrendered and was disarmed, the Confederates swarmed upon them and bayoneted, knifed, and clubbed some 250 men to death in an orgy of sadism.

Lawrence Massacre:

Quote:

The Raiders descended from Mount Oread into town at about 5:00 in the morning and burned down every business and municipal building. Homes were spared torching but the families were driven outside and the husbands, fathers, and son all shot dead on their porches, in the streets, even in their beds. The women were raped, some of them and some children shot down or trampled while they fled. At least 185 men and boys as young as 11 were executed merely for being able-bodied.

The 5-start treatment of POWs in Confederate prison camps:

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Inside the camp, there were only eight small buildings that could house a total of about 100 men. The prison held 45,000 by the end of the war. Most were given tents in which to sit or sleep, but the Georgia summer was overwhelming. 13,000 of those men died within 7 months of summer incarceration from sunstroke, starvation, or disease.

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Dr. Joseph Jones was assigned to investigate, he vomited twice during the one hour he toured the camp, and contracted a severe case of the flu which he warded off with oranges. He then asked the commandant, Henry Wirz, why Wirz was not suffering from scurvy, which was rampant throughout the camp. Wirz replied that he ate apples and oranges. “And the prisoners?” Jones asked. Wirz shrugged and said, “What about them?

Quote:

Wirz was tried, court-martialed, and hanged for murder on 10 November 1865, the only Confederate officer to be so executed.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 11:16am:

The Germans and Italians have also lost a few wars lately. There have been plenty of other examples since Muhammed's time. There is 1400 years of history there.

http://listverse.com/2013/03/17/10-war-crimes-of-the-us-civil-war/

Yes and absolutely none of them ever executed traitors within their own ranks, always gave POWs the 5 star treatment, and never ever committed any wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians. Tongue

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #79 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 12:30pm

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 11:16am:

You sure it was really about revenge?

Afghanistan wasn't the target of choice for the neo-con dominated Bush government - it was Iraq. Richard Feith and others are on record as urging an immediate attack on Iraq in the days following 9/11.

Afghanistan was a token response. A gesture to the American people that the government is doing something to bring the perpetrators to justice. But the administration would have much preferred to exercise the enormous capital they had for waging war on Iraq. Yet certain undeniable truths could not be ignored - the perpetrator seemed to be Osama bin Laden, and at the time he was entrenched in the mountains of Afghanistan. To not go after him and Afghanistan (for harbouring him) would have been political suicide - domestically. But I emphasise, it wasn't the administration's preference. Thus, it is clear that the war and regime change waged on Afghanistan was motivated primarily by the public's need for blood. It was pure emotion, and was by no means the best way of bringing bin Laden and Al Qaeda to justice. Surgical strikes and cooperation with both the Pakistani and taliban regimes would have been far more effective. So absolutely, yes, undeniably the slaughter of thousands of civilians in Afghanistan was all about revenge.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #80 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 12:36pm

Quote:

No its not. The southern states had already seceded

So if the Jewish tribe had thought to seceed before Muhammed attacked them, they would be regarded as POWs?

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But what is your point FD?

That the 700 men executed by Muhammed were POWs.

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That the Confederacy faced a similar dilemma to Muhammad, yet still refused to stoop to his level of moral depravity?

Not that it never happened, but that no-one (except Muslims) regards it as an example for all mankind to follow.

Quote:

Both sides of the war reported that after the fort’s surviving garrison, most of it comprised of black soldiers and civilian workers, surrendered and was disarmed, the Confederates swarmed upon them and bayoneted, knifed, and clubbed some 250 men to death in an orgy of sadism.

An orgy of sadism? Not God's will then? No excuses or whining about treachery?

Quote:

The Raiders descended from Mount Oread into town at about 5:00 in the morning and burned down every business and municipal building. Homes were spared torching but the families were driven outside and the husbands, fathers, and son all shot dead on their porches, in the streets, even in their beds. The women were raped, some of them and some children shot down or trampled while they fled. At least 185 men and boys as young as 11 were executed merely for being able-bodied.

That's a good one. Very similar to what Muhammed did, but I think Muhammed still leads with the most executions in one day, which is even more impressive when you consider the relative populations.. Also they were a lot more disorganised than Muhammed.

Quote:

Wirz was tried, court-martialed, and hanged for murder on 10 November 1865, the only Confederate officer to be so executed.

They didn't start a new religion after him?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #81 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 3:29pm

This discussion is ridiculous.

Muhammad was a prophet and an example for mankind - but he also had a state to run, and had enemies on all sides that had to be dealt with. You don't get through that with kid gloves.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 12:36pm:

Not that it never happened, but that no-one (except Muslims) regards it as an example for all mankind to follow.

No one regards that. You have to differentiate between Muhammad the religious prophet and guide for humankind, and Muhammad the leader of a small state. The idea that because Muhammad put to death a group of men because the specific circumstances he found himself in as leader of a small 7th century state necessitated that - then that should be standard practice for all muslims in any circumstance - is absurd to me.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47364 At my desk.	Re: On Islamic historical sourcing Reply #82 - Aug 5^th, 2013 at 3:45pm So Muslims should only practice mass execution of POWs when they feel it is necessary? Otherwise they have other options like forced mass migration, taking all the property including the land for themselves, taking everyone as slaves, taking the women home as sex slaves?
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True Colours

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #83 - Aug 6^th, 2013 at 4:43am

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 3:45pm:

So Muslims should only practice mass execution of POWs when they feel it is necessary? Otherwise they have other options like forced mass migration, taking all the property including the land for themselves, taking everyone as slaves, taking the women home as sex slaves?

Yeah except Prophet Muhammed didn't do these things. But once again, facts are not important to you are they? Why bother with facts when you can slander Muslims with falsehoods?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #84 - Aug 6^th, 2013 at 7:51am

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 3:45pm:

So Muslims should only practice mass execution of POWs when they feel it is necessary? Otherwise they have other options like forced mass migration, taking all the property including the land for themselves, taking everyone as slaves, taking the women home as sex slaves?

You forgot scorched earth FD. And couldn't we throw in a few other things - raping livestock? Eating babies perhaps? You know, if you're going to make sh!t up about what the prophet did, you may as well go the whole hog.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #85 - Aug 6^th, 2013 at 7:26pm

True Colours wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 4:43am:

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 3:45pm:

So Muslims should only practice mass execution of POWs when they feel it is necessary? Otherwise they have other options like forced mass migration, taking all the property including the land for themselves, taking everyone as slaves, taking the women home as sex slaves?

Yeah except Prophet Muhammed didn't do these things. But once again, facts are not important to you are they? Why bother with facts when you can slander Muslims with falsehoods?

Yes he did. I have provided the details to you many times already. You are very consistent in ignoring the facts.

Quote:

You forgot scorched earth FD. And couldn't we throw in a few other things - raping livestock? Eating babies perhaps? You know, if you're going to make sh!t up about what the prophet did, you may as well go the whole hog.

What did I make up?

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Yadda

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #86 - Aug 6^th, 2013 at 7:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 3:29pm:

This discussion is ridiculous.

Muhammad was a prophet and an example for mankind.....

As gandalf would say;

"Pure GOLD!"

i

Quote:

What Would Muhammad Do?
(a checklist)

Would Muhammad...?

YES!

NO!

Muslim Source (Links)
Have sex with a 9-year-old girl?    Hadith

Advocate beheading?
   Qur'an

Require women to
cover their faces?
   Qur'an & Hadith

Befriend Christians and Jews?    Qur'an

Own slaves?
   Qur'an & Hadith

Marry his daughter-in-law?
   Qur'an

Approve of prostitution?
   Qur'an & Hadith

Gluttonize?
   Ibn Ishaq

Recommend wife-beating?


Qur'an & Hadith

Hit his own wife?
   Hadith

Kill prisoners of war?
   Hadith

Advocate suicide attacks?
   Qur'an & Hadith

Kill apostates?
   Qur'an & Hadith

Tell sick persons to heal them-selves by drinking camel urine?    Hadith

Beat children who don’t pray?
   Hadith

Have boys as young as
13-years-old beheaded?    Hadith

Have eleven wives?
(at one time)
   Hadith

Approve of Sex with Minors?    Qur'an

Lie?
   Qur'an & Hadith

Enslave women and children?
   Hadith & Ibn Ishaq

Stone adulterers to death?
   Hadith

Torture a man out of greed?
   Ibn Ishaq

Consider men and women
equal partners?    Qur'an & Hadith

Steal?
   Qur'an & Hadith

Kill someone for insulting him?    Qur'an & Hadith

Preach love for people
of all religions?


Qur'an & Hadith

Extort money from
other religions?
   Qur'an & Hadith

Keep women as sex slaves?
   Qur'an

Force conversions to Islam?
   Qur'an & Hadith

Commit acts of terror?
   Qur'an & Hadith

Kill a woman?
   Biographers

Capture a woman and rape her?
   Hadith

Encourage the rape of women
in front of their husbands?    Hadith (Abu Dawud: 2150)

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/WWMD.htm

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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True Colours

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Re: On Islamic historical sourcing
Reply #87 - Aug 7^th, 2013 at 6:58am

Some on this forum are all for killing women and children let alone traitors or enemy soldiers:

Quote:

Lord Herbert wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 6:12pm:

True Colours wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:51pm:

Yeah except that Hiroshima was all civilian.

The US killed millions of Japanese civilians. War crime?

Of course not. They were the citizens of the nation that started a war of annihilation and cruel dictatorship over sovereign nations. Who do you think gave succor, and comfort, and encouragement to the Japanese soldiers when they were on home leave?

Who do you think would have benefited if Japan had won the war?

The citizens of an aggressor nation are very much involved in providing comfort and assurance to their solders.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: On Islamic historical sourcing Reply #88 - Aug 7^th, 2013 at 1:42pm freediver wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 7:26pm: What did I make up? scorched earth and raping his way to conquer the arabian peninsula.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47364 At my desk.	Re: On Islamic historical sourcing Reply #89 - Aug 7^th, 2013 at 8:22pm polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 7^th, 2013 at 1:42pm: freediver wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 7:26pm: What did I make up? scorched earth and raping his way to conquer the arabian peninsula. Ah, you mean the post you did not actually read?
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