Australian Politics Forum - Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from Reply #90 - Jul 14^th, 2013 at 8:56pm Ah, I see now. It was referring to what Umar would do, not Muhammad.
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freediver

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #91 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 2:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 11:30pm:

[quote]

The Jews and their allies had an army of ten thousand as they marched towards Medina. The Prophet had only three thousand soldiers. The ensuing battle was called the “Battle of the Ditch” because the Muslims dug a trench around Medina as a defensive ploy.

Never did the Prophet face such a critical and alarming situation in all of his military experience. He even had to send Muslim women and children to the outskirts of Medina for their safety. The Muslims feared that the community would be exterminated.

The Qur’an depicts the situation: “Remember what you felt when they came upon you from above you and from below you, and when your eyes became dim and your hearts came up to your throats, and when most conflicting thoughts about God passed through your minds: for there and then were the believers tried, and shaken with a shock severe.” (33:10)

Suddenly a storm wind blew violently, but strategically in favour of the Prophet and his army. Interminable strife and difficult climatic conditions eventually forced their enemies to leave. Admitting utter defeat, the Meccans and the other tribes left Medina. The Prophet immediately marched to Banu Qurazya. After a siege of almost one month, Banu Qurayza surrendered.

So what actually happened with this battle? Did the two forces actually clash? How many Muslims were killed?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from Reply #92 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 4:16pm And once again we witness the sheer hilarity of FD's incapability to look up something for himself.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from Reply #93 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 4:19pm note the clever subtext to FDs post: suspected no muslim casualties = no big deal = muslims not fighting for their very existence... ... = muslims were the agressors against the jews.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47481 At my desk.	Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from Reply #94 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 4:21pm That's similar to what Baron's link claims, which is what I am going by. I cannot find anything to contradict what they claim.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47481 At my desk.	Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from Reply #95 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 8:22am Gandalf it looks to me like all three examples from your opening posts are clear cases of collective punishment.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from Reply #96 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 11:58am freediver wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 8:22am: Gandalf it looks to me like all three examples from your opening posts are clear cases of collective punishment. Yes I'm pretty sure we've all got the meme by now FD.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47481 At my desk.	Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from Reply #97 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 1:51pm Do you agree Gandalf?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from Reply #98 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 2:39pm I agree that a "collective" was "punished". Do I agree it fits the term "collective punishment" as we understand it today? No.
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True Colours

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #99 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 6:54pm

freediver wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 2:49pm:

So what actually happened with this battle? Did the two forces actually clash? How many Muslims were killed?

It doesn't matter if they never clashed.

Should attempted murderers be let off if their plots fail. Should terrorists be let off if their pots don't get carried out?

The promise of the Jews to attack the Muslims was enough to embolden the pagan attackers from Mecca which was harmful in itself.

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freediver

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #100 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 7:46pm

Quote:

It doesn't matter if they never clashed.

If Muslims are using it to justify killing every single man and raping all the women, then I think it does matter.

Quote:

Should attempted murderers be let off if their plots fail. Should terrorists be let off if their pots don't get carried out?

Of course not. We should adopt the Islamic standard and kill them, kill every single male relative we can track down, and take all their female relatives as sex slaves. That's what you are getting at with your moral equivalences, right? We punish people for actual crimes, therefor this is no different to Muhammed slaughtering 700 men and taking all the women as sex slaves?

Quote:

The promise of the Jews to attack the Muslims was enough to embolden the pagan attackers from Mecca which was harmful in itself.

How harmful, exactly? And what did they actually promise?

If they did not actually attack them, can you explain what you meant with this?

True Colours wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 12:59am:

The violated the treaty that bound them to protect Madina. Instead of defending Madina, as they had promised, they actually attacked Madina from behind whilst the pagans of Mecca attacked from the other side.

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