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Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from (Read 38508 times)
Baronvonrort
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #60 - Jul 12th, 2013 at 3:18pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8th, 2013 at 6:41pm:
I honestly don't know where all this hate comes from. Unless you have had some personal negative experience with muslims?


Allah the most merciful of those who show mercy created me so he can burn me in the hellfire for all eternity for the crime of refusing to worship him, he will then replace my skin so he can burn it off again.

It is Allah's fault why some people dislike Islam ,why do you blame the kuffar when they had no say in it according to your delusional religion
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Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing,and over their vision is a veil.
And for them is a great punishment.
www.quran.com/2/7


2:7 sounds like people were calling bullshit on Islam when Mo the pedo was alive.

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #61 - Jul 12th, 2013 at 6:33pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2013 at 12:51pm:
So you were just trying to trick me into thinking this thread had something to do with where the collective punishment "meme" comes from? Should I start a different thread on collective punishment so I can leave this one to whatever particular claim you are trying to invent and then disprove?


You trick yourself FD. I made it very clear in the OP what this thread is about -  you were the one that decided this must necessarily be a pointless debate about a meaningless definition, not me. You answering every argument of mine with the line "my argument is that he engaged in collective punishment" ad nausuem doesn't change this fact.

freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2013 at 12:51pm:
I never said it was limited to Jews.


But you certainly said it included the jews. You stated very clearly that all jews were ethnically cleansed, firstly out of Arabia, then you modified that to 'a significant area' of Arabia - or something similar. Now that bullshit claim is exposed for the lie that it is, your tactic is to respond by referring to non-jews that were allegedly ethnically cleansed. The thread is about jews, how about we stick to that?


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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #62 - Jul 12th, 2013 at 8:16pm
 
Quote:
You trick yourself FD. I made it very clear in the OP what this thread is about


You called it "Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from". As for the content of the opening posts, you keep insisting you agree with the "tone" of it yet refuse to go into any of the details. As far as I can tell, this thread is about you backpedaling because you realised that Muhammed did indeed engage in collective punishment and ethnic cleansing.

Quote:
But you certainly said it included the jews. You stated very clearly that all jews were ethnically cleansed, firstly out of Arabia, then you modified that to 'a significant area' of Arabia - or something similar.


I did not modify anything. I have been trying to figure out what the area involved is, but no Muslim will tell me.

Quote:
Now that bullshit claim is exposed for the lie that it is


How so? Because those scheming Jews had it coming?

Quote:
The thread is about jews, how about we stick to that?


I would prefer to discuss where the "collective punishment" meme comes from. It appears to come directly from Muhammed, with a great deal of excusing, apologetics and hand washing.
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #63 - Jul 12th, 2013 at 10:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2013 at 8:16pm:
As for the content of the opening posts, you keep insisting you agree with the "tone" of it yet refuse to go into any of the details.


As I said before, I agree with the "tone", where it disputes the claim that the prophet singled out jews for special punishment merely because he was an anti-semite, and/or that he had a pre-planned agenda to wipe out the jews from Medina.

As religious historian Karen Armstrong states:

Quote:
The struggle did not indicate any hostility towards Jews in general, but only towards the three rebel tribes. The Quran continued to revere Jewish prophets and to urge Muslims to respect the People of the Book. Smaller Jewish groups continued to live in Medina, and later Jews, like Christians, enjoyed full religious liberty in the Islamic empires.

http://globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/karen_arm/qurayzah.html

freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2013 at 8:16pm:
As far as I can tell, this thread is about you backpedaling because you realised that Muhammed did indeed engage in collective punishment and ethnic cleansing.


Of course he engaged in 'collective punishment' - as defined by your arbitrary and meaningless definition of the word. A "collective" was "punished" - right? However it clearly doesn't fit the definition as we understand it today.

But what the thread is about, if it really needs to be spelled out to you again, is to point out that the punishment meted out to the 3 rebel tribes had a context, it was not a specific anti-semitic program, and it was not a planned program to wipe out the jews from Medina. It was anti-rebellion, not anti-semitic. This is important to point out as it refutes your silly "anti-semitism in islam goes back to the prophet" meme.

freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2013 at 8:16pm:
How so? Because those scheming Jews had it coming?


Your bullshit claim that all jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabia is bullshit because not all jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabia.  Cheesy Can I make it any clearer?

freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2013 at 8:16pm:
I would prefer to discuss where the "collective punishment" meme comes from. It appears to come directly from Muhammed, with a great deal of excusing, apologetics and hand washing.


It comes from you - for no other reason than to make an emotional appeal to a baseless smear on islam. Objective people though - and I am referring specifically to objective non-muslims - will look at the proper context and not make automatic leaps of logic that actions taken against enemies who happened to be jews - are necessarily religiously motivated anti-semitic actions.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #64 - Jul 12th, 2013 at 10:29pm
 
Quote:
Of course he engaged in 'collective punishment'


Thanks for clarifying.

Quote:
as defined by your arbitrary and meaningless definition of the word. A "collective" was "punished" - right? However it clearly doesn't fit the definition as we understand it today.


How do we understand it? It really is that simple Gandalf:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behavior of one or more other individuals or groups.

Quote:
Your bullshit claim that all jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabia is bullshit because not all jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabia.


You should start with what I actually said.

Quote:
It comes from you - for no other reason than to make an emotional appeal to a baseless smear on islam.


But you just admitted that Muhammed did indeed engage in collective punishment. I am still working on the ethnic cleansing bit.
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #65 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 12:00am
 

freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2013 at 10:29pm:
You should start with what I actually said.


Still playing that game?

Here you go:

Quote:
You mean like ethnic cleansing? Getting all the Jews out of Arabia?


Quote:
He did ethnically cleanse all non-Muslims from a significant area.


Or does "all non-Muslims" actually mean all non-muslims except jews?

Face it FD, you fell hook line and sinker for the lie that Muhammad booted out all jews from Arabia. He didn't. Unfortunately, you are now faced with the inconvenient fact that there is no basis to the malicious lie that Muhammad hated jews for being jews, or that he had a pre-meditated agenda to wipe them out of Arabia.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #66 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 9:57am
 
Actually it was the modern Arabs that did this. It is well documented and I have given you references plenty of times. Of course, a lot of them ended up in Israel as refugees, which may still count as Arabia. Not that the arabs didn't try to get them over the border and into the water. I guess believing that Islam makes you invincible on the battlefield doesn't quite cut it any more.

I'm not sure what line you think I fell for. I don't even recall reading it in the elaborate strawmen you create to avoid responding to what I actually say. My point was that Muhammed practiced ethnic cleansing of all non-Muslims, so I am not sure why you think quoting me saying "all non-Muslims" proves anything. Where I did mention Jews copping the brunt of it, it was in reference to collective punishment. You appear to be attempting to disprove this by citing examples of Muhammed engaging in collective punishment of Jews, then insisting the "tone" of the article is correct even if the details are a little off, then doing a classic Abu trick and pretending there is some sort of confusion over the meaning of collective punishment, then attempting to argue that the context makes it all OK, as if criticism of collective punishment is only meant to apply when everything is going well.
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #67 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 10:43am
 
Shurely shome mishtakre, no?
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #68 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 11:18am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 9:57am:
My point was that Muhammed practiced ethnic cleansing of all non-Muslims


Grin Grin Nice attempt at a backtrack - "practiced ethnic cleansing of all non-muslims" is a nice subtle change to "He did ethnically cleanse all non-Muslims from a significant area" - I'll give you that. But don't pretend the differences between the two are not significant.

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 9:57am:
You appear to be attempting to disprove this by citing examples of Muhammed engaging in collective punishment of Jews, then insisting the "tone" of the article is correct even if the details are a little off, then doing a classic Abu trick and pretending there is some sort of confusion over the meaning of collective punishment


The discussion was never about the question of whether or not Muhammad engaged in what you term "collective punishment". Thats meaningless and pointless. What *ISN'T* meaningless and pointless is the implications of such actions. You clearly imply that his actions were part of an evil plot to persecute non-muslims - because Muhammad and islam were/are inherently intolerant of non-islamic beliefs. In short, islam is intolerant and therefore evil. Thats what you mean to say when you throw the accusation of "collective punishment" against Muhammad. Otherwise you wouldn't say it.

I created this thread specifically to point out that the connection you make between "punishment of non-muslims" and "inherently evil islam" is misleading and wrong. And this can be understood simply by looking at the facts of the case: Muhammad acted against rebellion and treachery - not against non-muslims simply because they were non-muslims. The proof in the pudding is the fact that Muhammad accepted and demanded protection of non-muslims who didn't fight against him.

For example - the Achtiname of Muhammad, where the prophet enshrines the protection of christians into law:

Quote:
* This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them.

* Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.

* Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

* No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

* The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.99/zakir.htm#CHA


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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #69 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 1:35pm
 
Quote:
Nice attempt at a backtrack - "practiced ethnic cleansing of all non-muslims" is a nice subtle change to "He did ethnically cleanse all non-Muslims from a significant area" - I'll give you that. But don't pretend the differences between the two are not significant.


I have no idea what hair you are trying to split Gandalf.

Quote:
The discussion was never about the question of whether or not Muhammad engaged in what you term "collective punishment".


Can you explain your thread title?

Quote:
Thats meaningless and pointless.


Why is it pointless? Because it cannot be spun to make Islam look good?

Quote:
You clearly imply


Grin

Quote:
In short, islam is intolerant and therefore evil.


Yes, it is all these things, but I am struggling with your attempts at causation.

Quote:
Thats what you mean to say when you throw the accusation of "collective punishment" against Muhammad.


When I throw the accusation of collective punishment, I mean that he engaged in collective punishment. If I want to accuse him of something else also, I am happy to do that too - eg ethnic cleansing. I do not use one to mean the other, as you appear to do.

Quote:
Otherwise you wouldn't say it.


Why is it so hard to believe that when i say collective punishment I mean collective punishment?

Quote:
I created this thread specifically to point out that the connection you make between "punishment of non-muslims" and "inherently evil islam" is misleading and wrong.


How far into the thread did you get before revealing what it was really about? 5 pages?

Quote:
And this can be understood simply by looking at the facts of the case: Muhammad acted against rebellion and treachery


You left out disrobing. Mustn't have any of that, especially from Jews. Even Muhammed confiscated a sex slave before the new owner got a chance to disrobe her and traded her. BTW, is disrobing a euphemism for rape?

Quote:
For example - the Achtiname of Muhammad, where the prophet enshrines the protection of christians into law:


Did he offer the same generosity towards pagans?
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #70 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:20pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 11:18am:
For example - the Achtiname of Muhammad, where the prophet enshrines the protection of christians into law:

Quote:
* This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them.

* Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.

* Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

* No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

* The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.99/zakir.htm#CHA




Are the christians still protected if they do not pay the Jizya, is paying the Jizya for protection like paying the Mafia for protection?

Your link has quotes from Zakir Naik, he said every muslim should be a terrorist-


Quote:
The messenger of allah said-

I will expel the jews and christians from the Arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim.
www.sunnah.com/muslim/32/75



Quote:
Allah's messenger said-

Do not greet the jews and christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it.
www.sunnah.com/urn/253890
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #71 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:51pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 1:35pm:
When I throw the accusation of collective punishment, I mean that he engaged in collective punishment.


Yes, FD - I'm absolutely positive you just coined this emotive term and applied it to islam as a perfectly objective observation about the prophet and how islam developed.  Roll Eyes

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 1:35pm:
Why is it so hard to believe that when i say collective punishment I mean collective punishment?


Its not hard, its not hard at all. Perhaps thats the problem. Your prejudice is just all too transparent. For someone trying to paint islam in a particular light, who has preconceived prejudices about the prophet, using terms like 'collective punishment' - while completely ignoring the context, is exactly what I would expect. Even if you said "yes he practiced collective punishment, but there were defensive justifications for doing so..." would be a great advance on your current approach "garr islam is evil - the prophet engaged in (da da dummm...) *COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT* (gasp!)

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 1:35pm:
How far into the thread did you get before revealing what it was really about? 5 pages?


post 1 page 1 reveals it about as clearly as it can be revealed:

Quote:
I thought I should offer a perspective of this episode from an islamic point of view


and in the first sentence of the article:

Quote:
Was Prophet Muhammad Anti-Semitic, and did he slaughter the men, women, and children of the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza? Did he plan an ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people from the Arabian Peninsula?


Since thats somehow not obvious enough for you FD, this thread is about challenging the charge that Muhammad, and therefore Islam has an anti-semitic agenda - it hates jews for being jews, and the prophet planned and organised a sinnister plot to ethnically cleanse the jews from Arabia.

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 1:35pm:
BTW, is disrobing a euphemism for rape?


Well you tell me FD - you were the first to use the term in this thread.  Cheesy

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #72 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:52pm
 
Quote:
I will expel the jews and christians from the Arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim.
www.sunnah.com/muslim/32/75


Is that true Gandalf? How would you describe this? Self defense?
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #73 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:55pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:20pm:
Are the christians still protected if they do not pay the Jizya, is paying the Jizya for protection like paying the Mafia for protection?


Do you think its fair for all members of society to pay tax?

Members of the islamic community all pay tax - as far as I know it is all equal. Its just that the non-muslim tax is called jizya. Muslims pay another tax.

I've never understood this argument.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #74 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 3:21pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:52pm:
Is that true Gandalf? How would you describe this? Self defense?


My understanding is this included only the Hijaz. Jews however continued to live in Khaybar and Yemen - amazingly enough jews live in Yemen to this day. Christians continued to hang around the region too.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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