Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 7
Send Topic Print
Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from (Read 38512 times)
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 94104
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #30 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 11:11am
 
Adamant wrote on Jul 4th, 2013 at 10:30pm:
Bobby. wrote on Jul 4th, 2013 at 12:37pm:
The Jews believe in collective punishment -
in this case the whole world should be punished:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Quote:
In 2003, a military historian Martin van Creveld, thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence.[29] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's "The Gun and the Olive Branch" (2003) as saying:


We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.



The time of the  persecution of Jews is well over Bobby. The sooner every person on the Planet realizes this the better!



I wonder if the Samson option is still official Israeli policy?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #31 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 11:52am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2013 at 10:48am:
My argument is that it is collective punishment.


And what does that even mean? Its a meaningless slogan that seeks to remove any historical context and simplify the situation into a silly 'good vs evil' dichotomy.

But of course your entire approach to this topic is to reduce everything to simplistic, emotional slogans. You start with a rather lengthy paragraph in which not a single sentence misses a comparison with the nazis. Now you claim that your only argument was to point out that it is 'collective punishment'. I wouldn't neccessarily disagree with that - though I disagree that it conforms to the modern meaning of the word: I reject that the women and children were punished ('enslavement' = protective custody), and the only people who were executed were the men who participated in the fighting against the muslims. 'Collective punishment' in the modern sense of the word, refers to punishing an entire population for the actions of a few.

Either way, why this whole rant about the nazis? Does mention of 'collective punishment' (however you want to define it) necessarily require mentioning the nazis - as if any collective punishment throughout history is comparable to what the nazis did? Of course not - and thats why people who do this are subject to such ridicule as an invoker of 'Godwin's Law'.

freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2013 at 10:48am:
Muhammed was not racist. He persecuted the Jews for religious reasons.


Based on what? Everything we know about the prophet indicates that he saw the jews as natural allies. What evidence is there that Muhammad killed or persecuted jews for religious reasons - as opposed to punishing those (jews or otherwise) who conspired with his enemies to annihilate the muslim community? Anything??
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47043
At my desk.
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #32 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 12:30pm
 
Quote:
And what does that even mean? Its a meaningless slogan that seeks to remove any historical context and simplify the situation into a silly 'good vs evil' dichotomy.


We are three pages in to a thread you started on collective punishment. Perhaps you should have mentioned earlier that you don't know what it means.

Quote:
But of course your entire approach to this topic is to reduce everything to simplistic, emotional slogans.


It is a pretty simple topic. I say it is collective punishment because the collective was being punished for the actions of a few. You say it is not collective punishment because those scheming Jews had it coming.

Quote:
You start with a rather lengthy paragraph in which not a single sentence misses a comparison with the nazis


It's surprising how easy it is to make such comparisons. The examples set by Muhammed, including collective punishment, set in motion a train of events that finally lead to the Arabs booting out the few remaining Jews 1400 years later, the trying to wipe them out.

Quote:
Now you claim that your only argument was to point out that it is 'collective punishment'. I wouldn't neccessarily disagree with that - though I disagree that it conforms to the modern meaning of the word: I reject that the women and children were punished ('enslavement' = protective custody)


The ones in the tribe who were booted out following the disrobing incident were collectively punished, along with the others who were moved on in Muhammed's ethnic cleansing program. Sexual slavery is kind of a different topic to collective punishment, and I agree that it does not make sense to characterise it as collective punishment as that is not the itnention of sexual slavery.

Quote:
Either way, why this whole rant about the nazis? Does mention of 'collective punishment' (however you want to define it) necessarily require mentioning the nazis - as if any collective punishment throughout history is comparable to what the nazis did? Of course not - and thats why people who do this are subject to such ridicule as an invoker of 'Godwin's Law'.


It is the focus on blaming the Jews that leads inevitably to comparisons with the Nazis. The Jews seem to have copped the worst from the Muslims under Muhammed - and ever since. Also, booting out the Jews shortly after the holocaust then declaring another war on them is obviously going to attract comparisons with the Nazis.

Quote:
Based on what? Everything we know about the prophet indicates that he saw the jews as natural allies. What evidence is there that Muhammad killed or persecuted jews for religious reasons - as opposed to punishing those (jews or otherwise) who conspired with his enemies to annihilate the muslim community? Anything??


Being an ally and persecuting them are not mutually exclusive. Combining them leads to the sort of mixed messages and contradictions that define Islam. Muhammed persecuted everyone who did not join his religion - Jews, Christians, Pagans etc. He started by booting all of them out under his program of ethnic cleansing. Did I mention how Muhammed was a bit like Hitler? It Hitler had succeeded in establishing his 1000 year Reich, in a thousand years we would have Nazis offering the same excuses for Hitler's actions that we see Muslims offering for Muhammed's actions.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #33 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 12:44pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2013 at 12:30pm:
It's surprising how easy it is to make such comparisons.


Grin Grin Go away FD.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
Baronvonrort
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17387
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #34 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 1:49pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 7th, 2013 at 11:52am:
I reject that the women and children were punished ('enslavement' = protective custody)

Everything we know about the prophet indicates that he saw the jews as natural allies.



So if a non muslim enslaves muslims we can call that protective custody?

When muslims enslave women they have the right to rape them according to Islam, do you consider this rape to be a part of protective custody?
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/10382/slave

Does the Universal declaration of human rights outlaw slavery, is this one reason why muslims reject the UDHR?

What does the Quran say about taking the jews and christians as allies, does allah the most merciful of those who show mercy forbid this?
www.quran.com/5/51
Quote:
Do not take the jews and christians as allies
Back to top
 

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
IP Logged
 
Baronvonrort
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17387
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #35 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 1:57pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3rd, 2013 at 10:27am:
Baron (and presumably you) claim a different version of the Banu Qurayza story to that of the hadith (and any independent historical account I have seen). I'd be interested in seeing the evidence for this version.


This article by Ali Sina refutes the bullshit you post.
www.wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza

More here-
www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/b_quraiza.htm


As for Mohammad being a highway robber and a fraud you can read the chapter on caravans in his biography Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq.
Back to top
 

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #36 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 2:24pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 7th, 2013 at 1:49pm:
Do not take the jews and christians as allies


Oh its allies now is it? You lot usually quote it as "friends". I guess whatever fits your agenda.

It is neither. The correct translation is "mentor", "spiritual guide" -along those lines.

As if the muslims didn't have any christian or jewish allies  Roll Eyes

Also, don't waste my time by quoting islamqa, faithfreedom or wikiislam.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47043
At my desk.
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #37 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 5:05pm
 
Quote:
Oh its allies now is it? You lot usually quote it as "friends". I guess whatever fits your agenda.


Seeing as the topic is you denying the whole collective punishment thing in Islam, as a show of good faith, could you stop referring to us as "you lot" and address instead what the individual has said?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 91855
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #38 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 8:25pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2013 at 5:05pm:
Quote:
Oh its allies now is it? You lot usually quote it as "friends". I guess whatever fits your agenda.


Seeing as the topic is you denying the whole collective punishment thing in Islam, as a show of good faith, could you stop referring to us as "you lot" and address instead what the individual has said?


Us?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47043
At my desk.
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #39 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 9:24pm
 
You people always miss the point.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 91855
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #40 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 10:23pm
 
Ah, a good man, one of us.

Gud is great, no? He lives in us, isn’t it.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #41 - Jul 8th, 2013 at 11:35am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2013 at 12:30pm:
It is a pretty simple topic. I say it is collective punishment because the collective was being punished for the actions of a few. You say it is not collective punishment because those scheming Jews had it coming.


The only people executed were those actively partaking in fighting against the muslims. The rest were spared. How exactly is it punishment for the actions of a few?

"Scheming jews" is a nice emotive term to use for cheap points. You refuse to look at muslim-jewish relations without post-European-holocaust goggles. The Europeans committed unprecedented atrocities against the jews - therefore anything bad that happens to the jews - even if its outside Europe - has to be viewed through this lense. Or put simply, muslims must be blamed for the atrocities of the Europeans.

Without any evidence to the contrary, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Muhammad had no anti-semitic, jew-hating agenda, but had an anti-treason agenda. This tribe was punished because it conspired with the muslim's enemies - who at that stage presented an existential threat. Not because they were jewish. We know this because other jews continued to live and prosper with the muslims in Medina.

Your insistence on comparing the prophet's treatment of the jews with the nazis - when you can't even think of anything about the two that are comparable (outside some absurdly vague notion of "setting things in motion" - which is ridiculous as jewish persecution was "set in motion" centuries before by European rulers) - is laughable. It is nothing but an emotional tool that has no other purpose than to eliminate any historical context, and reduce the issue to a simplistic "evil muslim" meme.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
Baronvonrort
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17387
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #42 - Jul 8th, 2013 at 5:21pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 7th, 2013 at 2:24pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 7th, 2013 at 1:49pm:
Do not take the jews and christians as allies


Oh its allies now is it? You lot usually quote it as "friends". I guess whatever fits your agenda.

It is neither. The correct translation is "mentor", "spiritual guide" -along those lines.

As if the muslims didn't have any christian or jewish allies  Roll Eyes

Also, don't waste my time by quoting islamqa, faithfreedom or wikiislam.



If muslims have jewish or christian friends/allies that would be in spite of Islam not because of Islam.

How many Islamic countries have a peace treaty with Israel?is it 1 or 2?

Why do all the muslims who post here disagree with quran.com and claim they have better arabic than the quran.com translators, do you think anyone will believe your lies?

How about we go over to the Council of ex muslims forum and see how many there agree with the wiki islam account of Mohammad slaughtering and enslaving the Banu Qurayza.
www.councilofexmuslims.com

A lot of atheists in Australia, what does Islam preach about atheists gandalf?



Back to top
 

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
IP Logged
 
Baronvonrort
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17387
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #43 - Jul 8th, 2013 at 5:28pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8th, 2013 at 11:35am:
The only people executed were those actively partaking in fighting against the muslims. The rest were spared. How exactly is it punishment for the actions of a few?



Do you think anyone will believe your lies?

If the Banu Qurayza did fight the muslims along with the Meccans then Islam would have been buried in that trench.

The jewish women and children were sold into slavery by muslims.

Where does it say in the Quran you cannot take a non combatant as a slave?

The marketplace is still used in Medina, perhaps they should dig it up and count how many jews were executed by Mohammad and his band of delusional thugs


Back to top
 

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #44 - Jul 8th, 2013 at 6:41pm
 
I honestly don't know where all this hate comes from. Unless you have had some personal negative experience with muslims? Most likely you just like trolling behind the protection of the internetz. I can't really blame you - there's not even a moderator here to enforce polite behaviour.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 7
Send Topic Print