Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 ... 7
Send Topic Print
Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from (Read 38514 times)
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #15 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 6:05pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 3rd, 2013 at 5:59pm:
the stuff about the kingdom come when the Joos are wiped out


I am not familiar with this reference - do you have a source?

I really hope you're not telling porky pies again Soren.

FD - 'porky pies' thats another phrase I use - be sure to tell me if there is a problem with it won't you?
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #16 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 6:16pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3rd, 2013 at 6:00pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 3rd, 2013 at 5:58pm:
Gandalf did you only just discover the word "meme"?


no - is the word a problem for you FD?


It just seems like an odd context to use it in.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #17 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 6:24pm
 
Quote:
Second, Banu Qaynuqa breached the right of a Muslim woman by forcibly exposing her private parts while she was in the market. This led to another conflict between Muslims and Jews. Consequently both Jewish tribes were expelled from Medina, due to their violation of the treaty and constitution.


Is this how you prove that Muhammed did not engage in collective punishment?

Quote:
In fact, the Jews did not object to this judgment, as Sa’ad’s decision was based on Jewish law, as expounded in the Torah


Gandalf, do you ever feel a bit skeptical in claming that the Jews did not object to being slaughtered?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #18 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 8:42pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 3rd, 2013 at 6:24pm:
Gandalf, do you ever feel a bit skeptical in claming that the Jews did not object to being slaughtered?


The tribe insisted that their condition for surrender was that they be sentenced by Sa’d bin Muadh (a former jew from a tribe with historic links to the Banu Qurazya). Sa'd only agreed to pass sentencing after both sides made a pledge to agree that his verdict would be binding.

So, you know, tough titties - sh!t happens in war eh? Especially to those who start them by backstabbing the people they had a treaty with.

Somewhat gruesome - I acknowledge - but the muslims were literally fighting a war for their very existence. After all this is how you justify Israeli terrorism and ethnic cleansing right?
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #19 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 9:34pm
 
What about the tribe that was expelled over the sexual assault of a Muslim woman? Was that not collective punishment, because the Jews had it coming? Even when it is right in front of you in black and white you cannot see it for what it is. You are so deluded that you offer and example of Muhammed engaging in collective punishment to prove that Muhammed did not engage in collective punishment. It's as if your thought process is as simple as "collective punishment sounds bad, this is in the Koran so it is good, therefor it is not collective punishment..."
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #20 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 9:37pm
 
I added a link to here from the wiki entry on collective punishment for you.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values#Collec...
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #21 - Jul 3rd, 2013 at 10:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 3rd, 2013 at 9:34pm:
What about the tribe that was expelled over the sexual assault of a Muslim woman? Was that not collective punishment, because the Jews had it coming?


As usual, I'll do your research for you:

Quote:
In March 624, Muslims led by Muhammad defeated the Meccans of the Banu Quraish tribe in the Battle of Badr. Ibn Ishaq writes that a dispute broke out between the Muslims and the Banu Qaynuqa (the allies of the Khazraj tribe) soon afterwards. When a Muslim woman visited a jeweler's shop in the Qaynuqa marketplace, she was pestered to uncover her hair. The goldsmith, a Jew, pinned her clothing such that, upon getting up, she was stripped naked. A Muslim man coming upon the resulting commotion killed the shopkeeper in retaliation. A mob of Jews from the Qaynuqa tribe then pounced on the Muslim man and killed him. This escalated to a chain of revenge killings, and enmity grew between Muslims and the Banu Qaynuqa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qaynuqa

Clearly it was not one incident of molestation that led to expulsion. The muslims were fighting a war for their very existence, which they just barely survived after the battle of the trench. The three jewish tribes in question were clearly conspiring with Muhammad's enemies, who were on the verge of overrunning them. I mean come on FD, you've just recently made a lengthy and impassioned case for justifying Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians - are desperate self-defence measures to stave off genocide only acceptable when its jews that are under threat?

The other problem you have is you don't seem to understand the proper meaning of collective punishment. Would you, for example, be willing to label the actions by the Israelis to the Palestinians on the eve of the arab invasion as "collective punishment" - and if not why not?

Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #22 - Jul 4th, 2013 at 12:32pm
 
Quote:
The three jewish tribes in question were clearly conspiring with Muhammad's enemies


You can tell this by the way the Jew pinned the Muslim woman's robes? Or do the actions of the other two Jewish tribes somehow cancel out the treatment of this Jewish tribe, such that it is not collective punishment once you take into account what the other two jewish tribes did?

Quote:
I mean come on FD, you've just recently made a lengthy and impassioned case for justifying Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians


No I haven't. What I did was point out how wrong you were about where the Israeli Jews came from.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 94184
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #23 - Jul 4th, 2013 at 12:37pm
 
The Jews believe in collective punishment -
in this case the whole world should be punished:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Quote:
In 2003, a military historian Martin van Creveld, thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence.[29] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's "The Gun and the Olive Branch" (2003) as saying:


We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Adamant
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1892
Brisbane
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #24 - Jul 4th, 2013 at 10:30pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Jul 4th, 2013 at 12:37pm:
The Jews believe in collective punishment -
in this case the whole world should be punished:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Quote:
In 2003, a military historian Martin van Creveld, thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence.[29] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's "The Gun and the Olive Branch" (2003) as saying:


We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.



The time of the  persecution of Jews is well over Bobby. The sooner every person on the Planet realizes this the better!
Back to top
 

In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%
 
IP Logged
 
Soren
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 25654
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #25 - Jul 4th, 2013 at 10:45pm
 
Indeed. Israel is the Warsaw Ghetto uprising writ large.



Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Soren
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 25654
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #26 - Jul 4th, 2013 at 11:59pm
 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #27 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 9:36am
 
Gandalf, if you have an answer that goes a bit beyond "it's not collective punishment because those scheming Jews had it coming", now would be a good time to bring it up.

Of course the Jews were conspiring against Muhammed. He showed a pattern of this sort of behaviour, and the willful self delusion of Muslims in convincing themselves it is all the Jews fault is about as close to Nazism as a religion can get. In many ways they excelled the Nazis. I don't see the Nazis telling everyone that the Jews agreed to be slaughtered and were happy with the outcome. I don't see them claiming they were actually the ones protecting the Jews (notwithstanding the occasional slaughter) but the Jews kept turning against them, leaving them no choice. It's like the first thing Islam does is destroy people's bullsh1t detector. Islam tolerates Jews, provided they are willing to live as second class citizens. The end result of Islam is what we see in the middle east today - they finally got rid of the last of their Jews and are clamouring to wage another war against the refugees who fled to Israel - and of course it is all the Jews fault. Who in history has managed to achieve this? Nazis and Muslims. Even when they are at the bottom of the heap they still think it is their destiny to conquer and subjugate Jews, by following Muhammed's lead.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #28 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 10:38am
 
FD, your only argument seems to be to compare what Mohammad did to the jews to what the nazis did to the jews. That is a problem because it is based on such an obviously flawed premise - that the two leaders were equally rabid in their hatred for jews.

Hitler didn't execute ~600 men who had conspired with his enemies in an effort to annihilate his entire society, and spared the women children and boys - he killed around 6 million men, women and children in a specific program of extermination. Even if you adjust for the differences in population density between the two periods, the two are still not the least bit comparable. And I don't think you have to be a tunnel visioned muslim to think this.

There is no evidence that Muhammad hated the jews because they were jews. On the contrary, he had set up the first multi-faith society in Medina, where muslims, christians and jews lived as equals. He was, however, prepared to defend his people against aggression. Yes, relations between the muslims and some jews broke down (other jews remained friendly, and stayed with the muslims long after the prophet's death - even serving in the army), but there is no evidence that this was caused by a conspiracy by the prophet to wipe out the jews as a race.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #29 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 10:48am
 
Quote:
FD, your only argument seems to be to compare what Mohammad did to the jews to what the nazis did to the jews.


My argument is that it is collective punishment.

Quote:
Hitler didn't execute ~600 men who had conspired with his enemies in an effort to annihilate his entire society, and spared the women children and boys - he killed around 6 million men, women and children in a specific program of extermination.


The Muslims liked to take the women for themselves. While this is better than what the Nazis did, it is hardly noble.

Quote:
Yes, relations between the muslims and some jews broke down (other jews remained friendly, and stayed with the muslims long after the prophet's death - even serving in the army), but there is no evidence that this was caused by a conspiracy by the prophet to wipe out the jews as a race.


Muhammed was not racist. He persecuted the Jews for religious reasons.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 ... 7
Send Topic Print