Australian Politics Forum - The Evolution of Islam

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98425	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #195 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:36pm Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:09pm: The citizens can only build in approved settlements. Yes, I believe that was the point I was trying to make.
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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #196 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:50pm The settlers are handled the same way as Palestinians by me when they mis behave.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98425	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #197 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:51pm Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 7:50pm: The settlers are handled the same way as Palestinians by me when they mis behave. Are they treated the same by the state of Israel, Avram?
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shockresist

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #198 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:39pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 5:39pm:

Gandalf I will address your points.

I believe as a guest in your country I owe people the truth of my views.

For me the time in the West Bank is all of importance of behavior yes.

Remember I was a member of the Israeli Army. It was my job to follow my orders from above.
The task was to keep order, to ensure that checkpoints run smooth, that no trouble is caused and to keep citizens safe.
If there was ever violence and dependent on where I was it was a different situation.

In the checkpoints close to Bethlehem where we are surrounded by Palestinian land it was dangerous, there was disturbance every day.
Now what must I do?

If there is stone throwing then how must I react?
How old is the Palestinians throwing?
Is there danger?
Do we give prior warnings of response?
Do we fire? And know this I can never fire on Palestinians without telephone official approval from Tel Aviv that it is ok to engage.
Then what? Fire over the heads? Fire at them to wound them?

This is the decisions and this is my influences of my time.

Now the big picture.

This is my views personally as young Israeli man who,looks to the future of my land.

Settlements? Current ones must stay and be protected.
I don't think we should build new ones. It causes many problems.

Palestinians to have their own land and state.

Israel to be a state for Jews.

Deal with Fatah. Never deal with Hamas or Hizbollah.

Talk to the moderate Palestinians and ensure we can have a combination of Jews and Arabs in the West Bank in separate areas with some protection by the IDF.

That is my view. It is two state but they must reject their violence and they must remove Hamas,

Maybe if you stop bombing arab schools and educational centres, and stop killing the kids dad, uncle's and brothers, then maybe they will stop throwing stones at you.

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shockresist

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #199 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:46pm

Israel caused serious damage to civilian infrastructure including homes, schools, sports facilities and a hospital in many parts of Gaza City,

Israeli forces have launched dozens of airstrikes on Gaza City, targeting governmental and civilian facilities and other objects mostly located in densely-populated areas. The targets have included the building of the Council of Ministers in the west of the City, which was completely destroyed and a number of nearby houses damaged; the building of the police command in the center of the City, which was completely destroyed and a number of nearby housesdamaged; the building of the Civil Department of the Ministry of Interior in the south of the City, which was attacked for the second time, causing damage to al-Quds Hospital and a number of public and UNRWA school; and Palestine Stadium in al-Remal neighborhood in the center of the City, which was extensively damaged.

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #200 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:57pm Yes yes big bad Israel.... Thousands of km away. You have no idea.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #201 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:58pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:11am: Thats right Soren - if all else fails, fall back on the irrational muslim meme. Never failed you before right? Good one, pal. Middle East?? Islam has nuffin do wiv nuffing. Obviously.
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Soren

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #202 - Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:14pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:58am:

Adamant wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:48am:

There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist

This misses the point I have been trying to make.

There were people living in what is now Israel - and who are no longer living there because of the creation of Israel. Their property and livelihoods had to be abandoned to facilitate the creation of Israel, and most of these people became refugees, living in limbo as stateless people to this very day. Whether these people were called "Palestinians" or "Syrians" or "Jordanians" matters not a damn thing to this fact.

The ones that didn't run away as refugees are full and equal citizens of Israel, enjoying human and civil right their fellow Muslim Arabs in 'Muslim lands' - whether you call them "Palestinians" or "Syrians" or "Jordanians" matters not a damn thing to this fact - can only dream of.

Muslims are freer everywhere in the despised liberal democracies than in 'Muslim Lands'. That's why they are all flocking to the West, that's why you are here. But you fvckers never tire of kvetching and bellyaching. You could easily just bugger off to the 'Muslim lands', you know. But you don't. That just shows how much all your screaming is in bad faith.
The Arabs in Israel are counting their blessings to be there. They could be in fvckn Afghanistan or Syria or Labia or Jordan or Saudi or Yemen or Egypt or Iraq or Iran. SO many fvckn hellholes, all buggered because they are full of you-know-who.

Why don't you go to the 'Muslim lands'? They seem so fvckn important to you, yet here you are, battling freedom and democracy and the separation of state and mosque.

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« Last Edit: Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:25pm by Soren »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #203 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:15am

Honestly I don't know where all this hostility comes from Soren. And why do you have to always turn every issue into an issue about me?

People all over the world are interested in, and debate topics that have no direct relation to their personal lives - often on the other side of the world. Why do you have a problem with this when it is done by an Australian muslim? What possibly motivates you to lash out and tell them they should 'bugger off to [the place in question] if you love it so much' and turn what could be a constructive discussion into a personal attack?

I came here to discuss ideas, not attack personalities. I understand that as the only muslim here I will be targeted by critics of islam, and thats fine - but attacking me for who I am, as opposed to what I bring to the discussions - which you and Yadda are especially prone to doing - just makes you look like bigots, and certainly ruins any chance of constructive dialogue.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #204 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:35am

True, G, but as a Moslem, you are incapable of constructive dialogue. Only Y and the old boy are capable of this.

bugger off to the ’Muslim lands’.

Go to hell.

You must admit, such temperate, civilised, reasonable dialogue cannot include the Moslems.

Absolutely. Never ever. Ever.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #205 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:00am Karnal this style of response does not help. Soren does make some valid comments about Arabs are better treated in Israel than in Saudi or Jordan. Gandalf should also be entitled to his opinion despite being Muslim.
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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #206 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:13am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:00am:

Karnal this style of response does not help.

Soren does make some valid comments about Arabs are better treated in Israel than in Saudi or Jordan..

That is most likely true, but I can’t imagine Saudi or Jordanian land owners having their property confiscated by the state, or being treated as second class citizens if they live in certain zones.

Can you?

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shockresist

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #207 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:13am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:57pm:

Yes yes big bad Israel....

Thousands of km away.

You have no idea.

You talk about distance but in the last was with hizbuallah and Israel, Christian neighbour hoods in Lebanon were attacked and they were far away from the conflict.The main bridge in junior, Lebanon, a important bridge which wasn't even near hizbuallah territory was bombed by Israel.

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #208 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:53am I know that report. The bridge was showed to be being used to transport rockets down to a zone to reach Israel. This is why the IAF destroyed it.
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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #209 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:56am

Karnal wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:13am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:00am:

Karnal this style of response does not help.

Soren does make some valid comments about Arabs are better treated in Israel than in Saudi or Jordan..

That is most likely true, but I can’t imagine Saudi or Jordanian land owners having their property confiscated by the state, or being treated as second class citizens if they live in certain zones.

Can you?

I don't need to imagine I know so.
You know what Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis think of Palestinians??

Absolutely second class citizens.

Why you think they are so slow to provide help?
Why does Jordan keep them in refugee camps and not allow full entry?

In the Arab caste system where Kuwaitis are highest, Palestinians are very low.

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