Australian Politics Forum - Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?

polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #60 - Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:29am

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 8:41am:

According to you it is all very simple.

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 8:41am:

You just finished explaining how complicated it is and how each judge would give a different verdict. Do you think these judges are idiots?

FD, I'm afraid I can't help you if (as seems clear) you can't comprehend this simple point I'm making:

- the law *IS* that simple in regards to incitement to violent crime - ie it is illegal. Incitement simply means encouraging others to carry out illegal violence. From this, we can say with 100% certainty, that a publicly displayed sign calling on certain people to be murdered is incitement to violence.

However what *IS NOT* a simple matter, is determining when, where, and in whose hands such a sign can be deemed a breach of the law. This should be an obvious point I would have thought. As the Federal Attorney General's office stated once:

Quote:

‘the crime of incitement was harder to prove
because the crime of incitement requires the
prosecution to prove not only that the person
urged the commission of a criminal offence,
but also that the person intended that the crime urged be committed’

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/publications.nsf/0/57ba30f38d3c96...

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law? Reply #61 - Jun 7^th, 2013 at 10:30am bump
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freediver

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #62 - Jun 7^th, 2013 at 1:11pm

Quote:

From this, we can say with 100% certainty, that a publicly displayed sign calling on certain people to be murdered is incitement to violence.

The placards in question did not call for certain people to be murdered. Carrying the placards is not automatically an incitement to violent crime, any more than reading the corresponding extracts from the Koran is an incitement to violent crime. It could merely be an expression of a desire to legally introduce the death penalty fro blasphemy. The context of the protests does not change this, as a person can want to legally execute blasphemers at the same time as others want to break the law.

That is why there is no real world evidence that those placards are illegal. Nor is there any informed legal opinion that they are illegal. There is only your uninformed opinion that they are illegal. Have you changed your mind about that yet?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #63 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 11:56am

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 1:11pm:

That is why there is no real world evidence that those placards are illegal. Nor is there any informed legal opinion that they are illegal. There is only your uninformed opinion that they are illegal. Have you changed your mind about that yet?

A man was arrested and charged in the UK for holding a placard that read "bring back our soldiers in body bags" - or something to that effect. Now, of course he may only have meant for the relevant government to inact a law that introduce a death penalty for all UK soldiers serving in Afghanistan and Iraq. But its not very likely is it? Certainly the British authorities understood that as a clear incitement to (illegal) violence against those soldiers.

Similarly, there is precedent for people who mock the prophet to be under threat from (illegal) vigilante muslim justice - at least one has been murdered already. As soon as the youtube video came out, the maker was subject to specific violent threats against him all over the world. That is the context to the beheading placards in Sydney. Evidently, the police didn't judge it to be a serious enough threat, but it was nontheless a threat to someone's life. Somehow I don't think it was a rational call to introduce a piece of legislation.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #64 - Jun 15^th, 2013 at 7:51pm

Quote:

A man was arrested and charged in the UK for holding a placard that read "bring back our soldiers in body bags" - or something to that effect.

What did it actually say, and what was he charged with?

Do you have any examples to show that it is illegal in Australia?

Quote:

Certainly the British authorities understood that as a clear incitement to (illegal) violence against those soldiers.

I doubt it. The soldiers are overseas.

Quote:

Somehow I don't think it was a rational call to introduce a piece of legislation.

Somehow I doubt that counts as proof that someone has committed a crime. In any case, it does not have to be rational to be legal.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #65 - Jun 15^th, 2013 at 10:17pm

FD:

1. I encourage you to look the British case up yourself if you are really interested. I found it with a simple search, I'm sure you can too. It was from the 2006 cartoon demonstrations.

2. As I already said, there probably is no precedent in Australia - these were after all the first protests of its kind. But that doesn't mean it isn't illegal.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #66 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 1:34pm

OK then, let's broaden it a bit. Are there any precedents under our laws from slightly different contexts? It does not have to be violent Muslim riots, or the use of placards. Your own definition of what is illegal appears to cast an absurdly broad net.

As for the British case, if you don't even know what a person was charged with, how can you justify using it as an example of what is illegal? It is your example, and you are the one claiming things are illegal without any precedent or informed legal advice. I am not going to do your research for you.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #67 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 1:54pm

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 1:34pm:

OK then, let's broaden it a bit. Are there any precedents under our laws from slightly different contexts? It does not have to be violent Muslim riots, or the use of placards. Your own definition of what is illegal appears to cast an absurdly broad net.

You're only asking me something that you could easily find out yourself. The Andrew Bolt case, or the Alan Jones "Lebanese grubs" comment might be a good start.

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 1:34pm:

As for the British case, if you don't even know what a person was charged with, how can you justify using it as an example of what is illegal? It is your example, and you are the one claiming things are illegal without any precedent or informed legal advice.

He was charged because he held the inciteful placard - thats the important part. Again, if you are that interested I suggest you look it up yourself.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #68 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 4:55pm

Quote:

You're only asking me something that you could easily find out yourself.

Correct. It is your evidence. You presented it in support of your argument. I am asking you to show that it is relevant instead of demanding other people do the research when by your own admission you could only be bothered spending a few minutes looking. Does that sound unreasonable to you?

Quote:

He was charged because he held the inciteful placard - thats the important part.

You should let other people decide for themselves what the important part is. In the context of whether a certain action is illegal, I think it is very important what a person is actually charged with, especially given that it is the only example you have come up with, and it is from a foreign legal system. Otherwise you basically don't know what you are talking about and you should stop pretending that you do.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #69 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 7:13pm

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 4:55pm:

I am asking you to show that it is relevant instead of demanding other people do the research when by your own admission you could only be bothered spending a few minutes looking

The research has been done - by me. My evidence is referencing a very verifiable anecdote that anyone can check. Its no different to an academic just leaving a footnote of his source that others can look up themselves - rather than rewriting the entire book for people who can't be bothered to check for themselves.

I gave my reference, and I told you how you can find it. You could take my word for it, or if you have doubts, look it up yourself. tell me FD, is there much difference between me quoting the entire article here, or you typing the keywords I have already given you into google to read the article yourself? For crying out loud, even Yadda has mastered this.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #70 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 7:46pm

Quote:

Its no different to an academic just leaving a footnote of his source that others can look up themselves

Yes it is different. One is a reasonable and accepted presentation of the evidence. The other is a copout from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Doing the research yourself, then telling others to do the same research all over again is not how it is done Gandalf. You made the clearly false claim that the placards are illegal. You have not presented one example of anyone being charged under our laws for anything even remotely similar. You cannot come up with anything even remotely resembling informed opinion that backs up your view. All you have is one overseas example that you know nothing about.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #71 - Jun 17^th, 2013 at 8:01pm

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 7:46pm:

Doing the research yourself, then telling others to do the same research all over again is not how it is done Gandalf.

Correct - so its a good thing thats not what I'm doing. I've already done the research for you. Here I'll make it even easier for your:

google:
uk man charged incitement placard

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #72 - Jun 18^th, 2013 at 9:08am

You see Gandalf, this is why at the very least you should provide a link, even if you cannot figure out the real reason for the conviction. You have been here long enough to know what standards people expect, and "google it" just shows your evasiveness and hypocrisy. After all it was you who spent about a dozen pages demanding I use proper academic referencing styles etc. Contrary to your assertions, he was not charged for merely holding a placard, and if that was all he had done, he would not have even been charged. There is no need to interpret what he said in the way you need to interpret what was on the placards in Sydney. Even this was a borderline case, as the jury could not reach a decision on incitement to murder last year. This was a retrial.

You cannot find a single Australian example or informed legal opinion that supports your position, and even when you seek foreign examples you need to misrepresent them.

I suggest you stick to the facts, rather than expecting people to accept your version of common sense.

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mantra

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #73 - Jun 18^th, 2013 at 10:50am

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 7:46pm:

Yes it is different. One is a reasonable and accepted presentation of the evidence. The other is a copout from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Doing the research yourself, then telling others to do the same research all over again is not how it is done Gandalf. You made the clearly false claim that the placards are illegal. You have not presented one example of anyone being charged under our laws for anything even remotely similar. You cannot come up with anything even remotely resembling informed opinion that backs up your view. All you have is one overseas example that you know nothing about.

The reason why people aren't being charged here under our hate laws is because the Coalition watered them down to become ambiguous. They are so ambiguous they can vary from one jurisdiction to another - so a case can be difficult to pursue.

There is an international law - The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) which would deem these placards illegal, but then you have to have the knowledge and finances to pursue it through the appropriate channels. I doubt anyone cares that much.

Of course there would be people charged at various times by police and citizens who found the material offensive, but making the charge stick would be very difficult, not only in the UK, but more so in Australia because of the general vagueness of the national laws.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50566 At my desk.	Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law? Reply #74 - Jun 18^th, 2013 at 1:25pm So now the placards are illegal under international law?
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