Australian Politics Forum - Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?

polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #15 - May 30^th, 2013 at 7:35pm

freediver wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

I am vaguely aware of 2 or 3. Forget the outcome. I doubt they would number in the hundreds.

Here is a sample during the last few years. Its obviously not exhaustive. It obviously exceeds double digits.

I'll be particularly interested to read about the Catch the Fire Ministries Inc v Islamic Council of Victoria in detail.

freediver wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

Why is it irrelevant?

Because I was not talking about cases that are impossible to prove intent.

freediver wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

Well, it was the only clear example you had given, and now you have changed your mind.

Nope. thats your spin.

freediver wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

I suspect the law is equally ambiguous, and it has been completely left to judges to decide where yo draw the line.

Thats exactly right FD - I'm glad you are beginning to understand that. Now do you see the absurdity of stating in black and white things like 'intimidation is not illegal'?

freediver wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

I think it is an incitement to violence.

Then its illegal. Simple.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law? Reply #16 - May 30^th, 2013 at 7:36pm bump
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freediver

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #17 - May 30^th, 2013 at 7:47pm

Quote:

Here is a sample during the last few years. Its obviously not exhaustive. It obviously exceeds double digits.

They are mostly discrimination cases, including ones from overseas. That is not really the same issue. There is only one vilification case.

Quote:

Thats exactly right FD - I'm glad you are beginning to understand that. Now do you see the absurdity of stating in black and white things like 'intimidation is not illegal'?

It is not absurd. It is true.

Quote:

Then its illegal. Simple.

So the Koran is illegal?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law? Reply #18 - May 30^th, 2013 at 7:50pm freediver wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 7:47pm: So the Koran is illegal?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50565 At my desk.	Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law? Reply #19 - May 30^th, 2013 at 7:54pm Well I think it is an incitement to violence. That makes it illegal. It's that simple, remember?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law? Reply #20 - May 30^th, 2013 at 8:19pm Take it to court citing anti-discrimination, and let me know how you go FD.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50565 At my desk.	Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law? Reply #21 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 5:44pm Gandalf, are you still using the argument that your views exactly match Australian law to justify not explaining the extent to which you think freedom of speech should be restricted?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #22 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 5:59pm

I've already explained FD - I support laws that protect people from being vilified on the basis of race/ethnicity/culture/religion. And I also support laws that makes it unlawful to incite violence against groups or individuals.

It just so happens that we have such laws. What this entails exactly is impossible to define until actual incidents are brought forward, and can be judged on a case by case basis. But it is enough for me to state my support for these broad principles - and therefore the law as it stands.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50565 At my desk.	Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law? Reply #23 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 6:22pm As the law currently stands it is legal to walk through Sydney with a bunch of angry, violent, rioting Muslims while carrying a placard calling for people to be beheaded.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law? Reply #24 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 6:30pm I disagree. Its obviously far more cimplicated than that
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50565 At my desk.	Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law? Reply #25 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 6:33pm How so? You think these people should be arrested, yet even when they hand themselves over to police and admit their 'crimes' they are told to go away. Your views obviously do not match existing laws and no attempt to muddy the waters will change that.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #26 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 7:48pm

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 6:33pm:

How so?

Calling for someone to be beheaded is incitement to violence - I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise. But calling for a person to be beheaded who is already the source of intense anger across the muslim world, and whose life is already under direct threat - is about as specific a threat as you can get.

So the default position is that such a placard in the context of a violent and angry riot, is illegal. However what the authorities deem is an appropriate prosecution of the law is a different matter entirely.

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 6:33pm:

You think these people should be arrested, yet even when they hand themselves over to police and admit their 'crimes' they are told to go away.

The rumour is she claimed she didn't know what the word "behead" meant. If true, then this obviously raises questions about her intent. In any case, your logic that because she wasn't charged, therefore it wasn't illegal, is patently absurd. I've already mentioned the example of the minors who are regularly let off without charge for stealing - and we obviously don't go around saying stealing is therefore legal.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #27 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 8:41pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 7:48pm:

But calling for a person to be beheaded who is already the source of intense anger across the muslim world

Pal, if we all acted on our 'intense anger' about Islam, there would be probably no Islam left to be intensely angry about.

You are exploiting, blatantly, the West's core principle of restraint and reasonableness and tolerance. That's the difference between the West and Islam and the billion varied subscribers to it: if the West had the attitude of Islam, it would have wiped all Muslims off the face of the earth already.

That is the difference between the West and Islam, and that is why you are safe in the kuffar lands in a way that no kuffar is safe in Muslim lands. There is no Western equivalent of Jihad and you are exploiting that, in the name of jihad, to the max.

If both Islam and the West acted along the principles of Jihad, you would not exist. So you are very, very lucky that the West is not at all thinking along Islamic principles - your principles.

And we do not want to. So go and shove your ummah and jihad up your jumpers before it gets shoved up your arses.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law? Reply #28 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 8:49pm what the f*ck are you talking about Soren?
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Soren

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Re: Does Gandalf's opinion exactly match our law?
Reply #29 - Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 9:14pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 8:49pm:

what the f*ck are you talking about Soren?

I am saying is that your great good luck is that the opponents of Islam are not acting on Islamic principles.

Your Christian, Jewish and Hindu opponent have been far more humane than Islam.

Were they to act on Islamic principles, Muslims would have been wiped out by now: Christians throughout what was the Roman Empire have been wiped out by Muslims, Jews have been dispersed and driven out, Hindus massacred, animists in Africa likewise.

If the world adopted Islamic principles of dealing with its Muslim attackers, Islam would be now a distance memory, like the Hittites and Babylonians.

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