Australian Politics Forum - The role of Caliph in Islam

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47464
At my desk.

The role of Caliph in Islam
May 5^th, 2013 at 8:53pm

While Abu was here he frequently pointed out that Islam does not have a doctrinal leader the way many religions do (eg the Pope, the Dalai Lama). However, while Muhammed was around he was a political leader as well as a spiritual leader. He was followed by a succession of Caliphs, and their rulings contribute to Islamic doctrine. It is my understanding that from the point of view of Islam a Caliph's rule is not absolute, but if you want to change the law and the Caliph disagrees you basically have to kill him and become the Caliph yourself. Much of Islamic law is statutory rather than 'spiritual' in nature, and it was the Caliph who decided all the details.

Does the absence of a Caliph to guide and control the more politically ambitious Muslims contribute to the problems throughout the Muslim world, including terrorism?

Does Islam leave a power vacuum, in the sense that there is no precedent for how Muslims should behave in the current geopolitical situation?

How many Muslims would like to re-establish the position of Caliph and bring Muslims (or at least their particular sect) under a unified rule?

Is the violence between different Muslim groups effectively an effort to re-establish the Caliph and the Islamic state via the traditional means?

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: The role of Caliph in Islam
Reply #1 - May 5^th, 2013 at 9:45pm

I'm curious to know how you think Presbyterians cope - or Baptists or virtually any protestant church who has an absense of any supreme leader, or any sort of leadership hierarchy at all.

The reality is that in just about any muslim community you can think of there is a deeply reverred and trusted leadership figure - even if its a council of leaders that guide their flock.

And contrary to popular myth, most islamic terrorists have proven to be people with a deep desire to simply end the oppression of non-muslims in muslim countries - not people who want to restore the caliphate. Even Osama bin Laden's stated motivation was to end the US occupation of Saudi Arabia and other muslim countries.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47464
At my desk.

Re: The role of Caliph in Islam
Reply #2 - May 5^th, 2013 at 9:53pm

Quote:

I'm curious to know how you think Presbyterians cope - or Baptists or virtually any protestant church who has an absense of any supreme leader, or any sort of leadership hierarchy at all.

It is a bit easier when your religion does not incorporate politics to the extent Islam does.

Quote:

And contrary to popular myth, most islamic terrorists have proven to be people with a deep desire to simply end the oppression of non-muslims in muslim countries - not people who want to restore the caliphate.

Actually most Islamic terrorists are blowing up mosques. In any case, I am not sure why you think your point contradicts mine.

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: The role of Caliph in Islam Reply #3 - May 5^th, 2013 at 10:12pm freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2013 at 9:53pm: In any case, I am not sure why you think your point contradicts mine. It doesn't, and I never said it does. It is nonetheless a popular myth.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47464 At my desk.	Re: The role of Caliph in Islam Reply #4 - May 6^th, 2013 at 1:03pm Another popular myth is that if Muslims desired to destroy western freedoms and democracy, they would publicly announce it in press releases so we all knew it was coming.
Back to top	I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT! IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: The role of Caliph in Islam
Reply #5 - May 6^th, 2013 at 4:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 5^th, 2013 at 9:45pm:

I'm curious to know how you think Presbyterians cope - or Baptists or virtually any protestant church who has an absense of any supreme leader, or any sort of leadership hierarchy at all.

That might appear superficially true. However, despite their protestations, I think you'll find that the primacy of the Bishop of Rome (i.e. the Pope) is recognised, at the very least, as a first among equals and is not disputed to anywhere near the degree of his infallibility and his prerogative to unilaterally determine church dogma.

Meaning, that, while Protestant Christian sects do not recognise Papal authority directly, most would tacitly recognise that authority in principle. (After all... "Thou art Peter...").

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47464
At my desk.

Re: The role of Caliph in Islam
Reply #6 - May 6^th, 2013 at 7:46pm

Plus, they don't have the challenges to cope with. As Abu liked to explain to us (when he hadn't mentioned the whole deception is part of war thing in a while), he thinks that the west has been at war with Islam for the last 100 years or so. Abu was at a loss to explain how he thought he should handle the situation. Or at least, he was very hesitant to explain it to us.

Islam is supposed to have a state, a standing army, Shariah law etc. The last time they lacked this, they were a small group under the direct guidance of Muhammed, who used every trick in the book to provide these things.

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: The role of Caliph in Islam
Reply #7 - May 6^th, 2013 at 8:18pm

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 7:46pm:

Plus, they don't have the challenges to cope with. As Abu liked to explain to us (when he hadn't mentioned the whole deception is part of war thing in a while), he thinks that the west has been at war with Islam for the last 100 years or so. Abu was at a loss to explain how he thought he should handle the situation. Or at least, he was very hesitant to explain it to us.

Islam is supposed to have a state, a standing army, Shariah law etc. The last time they lacked this, they were a small group under the direct guidance of Muhammed, who used every trick in the book to provide these things.

Yes, and its likely that what Mohammed wanted to achieve was to meld the role of the Bishop of Rome and the role of the Caesars (most probably channeling Justinian) into a single role which, after his death, became the Caliph.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged