Australian Politics Forum - Islamonausea Rising in the West.

Baronvonrort

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #255 - May 17^th, 2013 at 3:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 3:11pm:

nothing is mentioned at all about Mohammad raping anyone. So why do you say he did?

What about Juwairiya and Safiyya?

Do you expect a rational person to believe they consented to marry Mohammad on the very same day he had their husbands heads chopped off after Mohammad attacked their tribes?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #256 - May 17^th, 2013 at 3:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 3:11pm:

nothing is mentioned at all about Mohammad raping anyone. So why do you say he did?

What about Juwairiya and Safiyya?

Do you expect a rational person to believe they consented to marry Mohammad on the very same day he had their husbands heads chopped off after Mohammad attacked their tribes?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Socrates

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #257 - May 17^th, 2013 at 4:05pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 3:11pm:

Socrates wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 1:00pm:

As a newcomer to the forum, I will comment on this thread based on some of the posts I have read. I haven't read them all but these last few pages seem to be about certain people here making excuses for the terrible crimes committed by some of the followers of Islam.

Without wanting to be thought of as a bigot which does appear to be the popular term for somebody who has an opinion of their own, I can only comment on what I interpret from the few posts I have read. As far as life is concerned, I do see the Muslim world encroaching more and more upon western society with a very dark agenda. I realise that there are good and bad in all walks of life, and yes there must be good well meaning Muslims. However, these I feel are few and far between and are kept under foot by the sick majority.

Socrates, I appreciate your candor.

In relation to your observations - and in particular to the statements I highlighted - there is another active thread on this forum in which I specifically asked for evidence for the claim that the promotion of terrorism and intolerance (perhaps what you mean by the term "dark agenda"), is in the mainstream of islam. After (currently) 18 pages of posts, no one has produced one shred of evidence to indicate this.

Yet the point of the thread was well made I believe. That is, when critics of islam make claims about the promotion of extremism by mainstream muslims, the only evidence they produce is 1. what the texts say and 2. anecdotes. As explained in detail in the thread, both of these are flawed - 1. because what the texts say doesn't prove anything about what actual every day muslims say and do in the real world and 2. anecdotes can be produced for just about any activity - but it says nothing about the prevalence of such activity.

So my question to you socrates, is are you any different? You made the claim right there in your post:

yes there must be good well meaning Muslims. However, these I feel are few and far between and are kept under foot by the sick majority

What exactly gives you this "feeling"? Do you have any compelling evidence that supports this? If not, would you agree that you are unfairly slandering an entire group of people?

Not at all, my opinion is based on the "unfair" slaughter of innocents the world over, and that isn't a feeling it's a fact. There must be good people who follow Islam, but we really only see the dark face of that ideology; the destruction of entire countries, the destruction of innocent people....NY, London, Spain, etc.....Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, etc...

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #258 - May 17^th, 2013 at 4:18pm

Baronvonrort wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 3:30pm:

Do you expect a rational person to believe they consented to marry Mohammad on the very same day he had their husbands heads chopped off after Mohammad attacked their tribes?

Firstly - in the absense of any evidence to the contrary - yes.

Secondly, get your facts straight. Neither girl's father was executed the same day as they were married. Safiyya's father was killed about a year earlier after he had broken a treaty he had with the muslims, and conspired with the enemies of islam to launch an attack on Mohammad. There is no information of when or how Juwairiya's father died.

On Juwayriyya's marriage to the prophet:

Quote:

"At the first opportunity [after her capture] she went to the Prophet, and pleaded her case with him. She told him that she was the daughter of a chieftain and used to command and because of her unfortunate circumstance she found herself in this helpless position. From a throne made of gold she had fallen into dust. ...How could she possibly live the life as a slave? She pleaded with the Prophet, to take notice of the pitiful and desperate condition in which she found herself.

The Prophet, was moved by her sorrowful plea and asked her if she would like to live as a free woman and be part of his household if he paid her ransom. She had never in her dreams expected this offer. Moved deeply by this unexpected elevation in her status, she exclaimed she would be more than happy to accept."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juwayriyya_bint_al-Harith

Puts it in a slightly different light wouldn't you say?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #259 - May 17^th, 2013 at 4:22pm

Socrates wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

Not at all, my opinion is based on the "unfair" slaughter of innocents the world over, and that isn't a feeling it's a fact.

The only fact here is that some muslims are killing innocents. No one is disputing that, and thats not what we're debating.

What is not a fact, is that this is being perpetrated by what you describe as the "sick majority". Thats my beef socrates.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #260 - May 17^th, 2013 at 4:44pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 4:18pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 3:30pm:

Do you expect a rational person to believe they consented to marry Mohammad on the very same day he had their husbands heads chopped off after Mohammad attacked their tribes?

Firstly - in the absense of any evidence to the contrary - yes.

Secondly, get your facts straight. Neither girl's father was executed the same day as they were married. Safiyya's father was killed about a year earlier after he had broken a treaty he had with the muslims, and conspired with the enemies of islam to launch an attack on Mohammad. There is no information of when or how Juwairiya's father died.

On Juwayriyya's marriage to the prophet:

Quote:

"At the first opportunity [after her capture] she went to the Prophet, and pleaded her case with him. She told him that she was the daughter of a chieftain and used to command and because of her unfortunate circumstance she found herself in this helpless position. From a throne made of gold she had fallen into dust. ...How could she possibly live the life as a slave? She pleaded with the Prophet, to take notice of the pitiful and desperate condition in which she found herself.

The Prophet, was moved by her sorrowful plea and asked her if she would like to live as a free woman and be part of his household if he paid her ransom. She had never in her dreams expected this offer. Moved deeply by this unexpected elevation in her status, she exclaimed she would be more than happy to accept."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juwayriyya_bint_al-Harith

Puts it in a slightly different light wouldn't you say?

Can you cite where i mentioned their fathers, those girls were married and it was their husbands who were killed by the attacking muslims on the very same day Mo married those widows.

Wiki always puts a positive spin on Islam thanks to the muslims who edit it which is why it is considered unreliable with Islam.
It lists al Razi as a muslim when he said the Quran is full of contradictions which is something a muslim would never say.

Quote:

I wrote to Nafi inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend to the disbelivers an invitation to accept Islam before meeting them in fight (no compulsion in religion..lmao) .He wrote that is was necessary in the early days of Islam.The messenger of Allah made a raid upon the Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water, he killed those who fought and imprisoned others.On that very day he captured Juwairiya bint al Harith.
www.sunnah.com/muslim/32/1

Mohammad ordered the torture of Safiyya's husband so he would disclose where the tribes wealth was hidden, according to Ibn Ishaq they lit a fire of flint and steel on his chest before chopping his head off.
The word is Safiyya was smoking hot,no offence meant to her deceased husband.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #261 - May 17^th, 2013 at 6:01pm

Baronvonrort wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

Wiki always puts a positive spin on Islam thanks to the muslims who edit it which is why it is considered unreliable with Islam.

The great thing about wikipedia is the sourcing. If you are sceptical of the claims being made, cross check it with the sources cited.

Both tribes conspired to attack the muslims before Mohammad attacked them - but lets not worry about that.

Also, lets accept without question a 'mudallis' hadith whose authenticity is widely discredited.

But the original claim was that both wives didn't concent to their marriage. Despite your attempts to deflect with irrelevancies, this claim is still baseless.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #262 - May 17^th, 2013 at 6:43pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 12:45pm:

Bad Islam is the responsibility of the bad Muslims, Soren. Capeche?

You however blame all Muslims for the bad reputation that bad Muslims have created in the last "x" years.

That is collective guilt. That is, amongst thinking people, a "bad thing". It is poor reasoning and poor understanding of the religion's followers.

That is no different from the (relatively few) Christians who continue to blame all Jews for the execution of Christ 2,000+ years ago.

Typical of bigots though. Roll Eyes

Collective guilt is bad? Okay. So does that count for white Australians, too? Doesn't seem so according to your comments in this thread: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1368482737/15

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #263 - May 17^th, 2013 at 6:55pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 6:01pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

Wiki always puts a positive spin on Islam thanks to the muslims who edit it which is why it is considered unreliable with Islam.

The great thing about wikipedia is the sourcing. If you are sceptical of the claims being made, cross check it with the sources cited.

Both tribes conspired to attack the muslims before Mohammad attacked them - but lets not worry about that.

Also, lets accept without question a 'mudallis' hadith whose authenticity is widely discredited.

But the original claim was that both wives didn't concent to their marriage. Despite your attempts to deflect with irrelevancies, this claim is still baseless.

Yes i had a look at the sources it claims one is pages 490-493 of Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq, the only problem is that page number does not exist in Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq.
Typical deception by muslims there gandalf Grin

,anyone can download Sirat Rasul Allah in PDF and see the blatant lies from this muslim.

Do you expect a rational person to believe Juwairiya and Safiyya consented to marry the guy who attacked their tribes and killed their husbands on the very same day?

Bukhari also mentions this-www.sunnah.com/bukhari/49/25

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #264 - May 17^th, 2013 at 7:08pm

Socrates wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

Not at all, my opinion is based on the "unfair" slaughter of innocents the world over, and that isn't a feeling it's a fact. There must be good people who follow Islam, but we really only see the dark face of that ideology; the destruction of entire countries, the destruction of innocent people....NY, London, Spain, etc.....Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, etc...

OK, as most of the innocents you've named are Muslims themselves, don't you think it odd that they are being slaughtered by other Muslims? Your view appears to be the simplistic one so common here that all Muslims are evil. That is bigotry, in case you're interested.

The fact that innocent Muslims are being slaughtered because they refuse to accept the views of the minority of other Muslims who are pushing their views to the point of resorting to murder rather suggests that the minority who are Terrorists aren't the mainstream... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #265 - May 17^th, 2013 at 7:11pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 6:43pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 12:45pm:

Bad Islam is the responsibility of the bad Muslims, Soren. Capeche?

You however blame all Muslims for the bad reputation that bad Muslims have created in the last "x" years.

That is collective guilt. That is, amongst thinking people, a "bad thing". It is poor reasoning and poor understanding of the religion's followers.

That is no different from the (relatively few) Christians who continue to blame all Jews for the execution of Christ 2,000+ years ago.

Typical of bigots though. Roll Eyes

Collective guilt is bad? Okay. So does that count for white Australians, too? Doesn't seem so according to your comments in this thread: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1368482737/15

The only guilt I've suggested there is one for denying historical facts, not for the actions of Australians over 50+ years ago, Mist. You do perceive the difference? Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #266 - May 17^th, 2013 at 7:11pm

Baronvonrort wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 6:55pm:

Yes i had a look at the sources it claims one is pages 490-493 of Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq, the only problem is that page number does not exist in Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq.

source: Alfred Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, p. 490-493

Alfred Guilaume's The Life of Muhammad has over 800 pages.

You ever get sick of saying stupid things Baron?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #267 - May 17^th, 2013 at 8:27pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 2:39pm:

I don't recognise you as an authority on anything, Yadda, except Crayon use.

I provided you a link which shows rape is forbidden by Islam. You ignored it.

Typical for a bigot...

Confronted with truth and facts that do not coincide with your own argument and with your own worldview;

DEFLECT;
CASTIGATE;
ABUSE;
and.....

REFUSE TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE(S)

Weak, very, very, weak.

People like yourself do not want debate, you are unable to debate.

You just want to gag and to abuse those who do not agree with your own views.

You are the bigot Brian.

Lionel Edriess wrote on May 15^th, 2013 at 7:53pm:

I'm getting a little tired of this constant labelling of opposing views being shut down because of the use of this 'label'.

You may have the right to call me a 'racist' because I might espouse a racist viewpoint, but you have no right to call me a 'bigot' simply because I disagree with you.

Lift your game.

The OED defines bigotry as: ..."intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself" .

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bigotry?q=bigotry

Even though our opinions might differ, Brian, I don't think I've ever called you a bigot. Though, by definition, I would have been entitled to do so.

A 'knob' has many meanings, no?

Perhaps, in future diatribes, I could just be referred to as a 'conscientious objector'? Or a more appropriately relevant label?

Opposing view noted - label discarded as irrelevant. OK with you?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #268 - May 17^th, 2013 at 8:44pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 3:11pm:

Speaking of lying, even this claim of yours is about what Mohammad's subjects did -

nothing is mentioned at all about Mohammad raping anyone.

So why do you say he did?

gandalf,

Lets us go down to the park and catch some girls
......and then have sex with them.

It is not rape gandalf.......just non-consensual sex.
/sarc off

gandalf,

Rape = = having non-consensual sex

Mohammed did it, READ ON........

Yadda wrote on Sep 1^st, 2009 at 9:16am:

FROM THE HADITH.....

"We went out with Allah's Messenger"
= = Mohammed was in the company of these men.

"on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women"
= = describing some form of raiding party, where Mohammed, and his men, 'took captive some excellent Arab women'.

"and we desired them"
= = hmmmm, i wonder what this means?

"for we were suffering from the absence of our wives"
= = ah, in the absence they wives, they desired these women for sex, to satisfy their sexual lust. This sounds like fornication to me. So why weren't Mohammed and his men stoned to death???

"(but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them."
= = in their minds, their moslem captors sought to sexually 'use', and shame, these captive Arab women, and then let their menfolk redeem them. How honourable of these moslem men. /sarc off

"So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them"
= = yep, Allah's finest, sought to sexually 'use' these 'excellent' captive Arab women.

FROM THE HADITH, END.

These [above] Hadith verses are cited, with references, here [in another thread],

Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1251431040/8#8

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #269 - May 17^th, 2013 at 9:07pm

Socrates wrote on May 17^th, 2013 at 1:00pm:

As a newcomer to the forum, I will comment on this thread based on some of the posts I have read. I haven't read them all but these last few pages seem to be about certain people here making excuses for the terrible crimes committed by some of the followers of Islam.

Without wanting to be thought of as a bigot which does appear to be the popular term for somebody who has an opinion of their own, I can only comment on what I interpret from the few posts I have read. As far as life is concerned, I do see the Muslim world encroaching more and more upon western society with a very dark agenda. I realise that there are good and bad in all walks of life, and yes there must be good well meaning Muslims. However, these I feel are few and far between and are kept under foot by the sick majority.

Thank you, and welcome to bigotry.

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