Australian Politics Forum - Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?

Lobo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7407 Sydney Gender:	Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax? Reply #90 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 8:16pm Anyone care to hazard a guess at the other question??
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Dnarever

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #91 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 8:17pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 7:29pm:

Peter Freedman wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:44pm:

If you follow longweekend's "logic" Opposition parties should vote for all Government policies.

In fact, Opposition MPs shouldn't bother turning up to Parliament all, just take three years' paid holiday.

another leftie who unsurprisingly has little concept of or respect for the democratic process. the question at hand is 'should labor repeal the CT if the substantial majority of australians want them to and it is expressed at an election'?

care to give us your opinion?

I think that about 100% of the people who vote for Labor would be expecting them to continue fighting for a price on carbon.

Should Labor act in support of the people who voted for them of for the people who voted against them?

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skippy.

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #92 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 8:33pm

Dnarever wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 8:17pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 7:29pm:

Peter Freedman wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:44pm:

If you follow longweekend's "logic" Opposition parties should vote for all Government policies.

In fact, Opposition MPs shouldn't bother turning up to Parliament all, just take three years' paid holiday.

another leftie who unsurprisingly has little concept of or respect for the democratic process. the question at hand is 'should labor repeal the CT if the substantial majority of australians want them to and it is expressed at an election'?

care to give us your opinion?

I think that about 100% of the people who vote for Labor would be expecting them to continue fighting for a price on carbon.

Should Labor act in support of the people who voted for them of for the people who voted against them?

Plus 100% of people that vote GREENS, so even on worse case scenario that is around 45% of the population that demand a price on carbon. bugger the conga line, if they want to push through with their hatred for future generations by denying climate change let the wankers go to a DD. most governments that have gone to a DD have suffered. So it can only help Labor and the GREENS for Abbott to go to one. In fact it will take so long to get to that point that by then the country would have suffered under phony tony for at least a couple of years, plenty long enough to see him as the lying fraud he is and kick his ass out of the lodge.

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MOTR Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6646	Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax? Reply #93 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 8:37pm Why on earth would you want to be party to such an act of vandalism. Deep down even Abbott is probably hoping he won't have to consummate his Faustian pact.
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freediver

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #94 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 9:24pm

Quote:

so you support the abrogation of the right of the australian people to have their wishes honoured?

Longy you are taking this to absurd lengths. You are now insisting that anyone who has their own opinion that differs from the majority wants to dismantle democracy. Think about what you are saying. Please.

Quote:

so dont bank on at me about not understanding what the 'majority' means.

But you don't. Look at the other thread - six pages of you not understanding the simplest concepts and rejecting a proposal that would actually achieve rule by majority, because you feared it would undermine the authority of political parties. You consistently put the rights of political parties above the people, as if our democracy is there to serve them. You made the absurd claim that everyone on that thread disagrees with me. You also insisted in that thread and many others that a party with minority public support should still be able to win on the grounds that it has a significant plurality. It is you who rejects rule by majority, not me. Hypocrite.

www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1358051073/81#81

www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1358051073/61#61

Nam:

Quote:

She has no integrity...zero...and the electorate now knows it...and you can say I'm wrong till the cows come home.

But you are wrong. You said she had every intention of doing this. Do you expect us to take you seriously.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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john_g

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #95 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 9:48pm

Work choices was the main, but not the only, reason that I voted Labor in 2007.

In any democracy, the majority is supposed to rule, and hence, the Coalition should have supported its removal, as per the mandate of the Australian people.

To their credit, they did so.

Labor lost any chance of getting my vote as soon as they broke their promise back in early 2011, and when we vote them out this year, they should remove the carbon tax, as per the mandate of the Australian people.

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longweekend58

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #96 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 10:46pm

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 9:24pm:

Quote:

so you support the abrogation of the right of the australian people to have their wishes honoured?

Longy you are taking this to absurd lengths. You are now insisting that anyone who has their own opinion that differs from the majority wants to dismantle democracy. Think about what you are saying. Please.

Quote:

so dont bank on at me about not understanding what the 'majority' means.

But you don't. Look at the other thread - six pages of you not understanding the simplest concepts and rejecting a proposal that would actually achieve rule by majority, because you feared it would undermine the authority of political parties. You consistently put the rights of political parties above the people, as if our democracy is there to serve them. You made the absurd claim that everyone on that thread disagrees with me. You also insisted in that thread and many others that a party with minority public support should still be able to win on the grounds that it has a significant plurality. It is you who rejects rule by majority, not me. Hypocrite.

www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1358051073/81#81

www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1358051073/61#61

Nam:

Quote:

She has no integrity...zero...and the electorate now knows it...and you can say I'm wrong till the cows come home.

But you are wrong. You said she had every intention of doing this. Do you expect us to take you seriously.

no. just you. i said that in a democracy, the wish of the people is the ultimate determinant of what happens. you said it was not and that there were other considerations besides the wish of the majoriy. if you wish to clarify this position with some actual detail instead of bluster then you may have a point but to date all you ahve done is confirm that you do NOT grant the wishes of the majority a primacy.

you liek a CT. you want a CT but that is not the question. the question is whether or not labor has a moral right to reject the wishes of the people in not repealing the CT. You have declined to answer that question - a matter or principle.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #97 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 11:08pm

namnugenot wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:57pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:46pm:

namnugenot wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:40pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:35pm:

Although as was the case at the last election you can lie your ar$e off with every intention of doing the exact opposite

Is that what you think happened?

That is exactly what happened.

No it isn't. Not on this planet.

"There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead blah, blah, blah..."
Which planet are you on by the way FD?

People seem to be upset about the word tax even though they will never actually pay any.

Gillard argued for weeks that a fixed price wasn't a tax and I can easily understand why she would have believed that to be true. Imagine agreeing to a fixed price on carbon which is very much like a fixed start to an ETS and then to later find it can technically be called a tax even though nobody pays any tax and the ATO never gets any money from it.

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longweekend58

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #98 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 11:15pm

Dnarever wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 11:08pm:

namnugenot wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:57pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:46pm:

namnugenot wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:40pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:35pm:

Although as was the case at the last election you can lie your ar$e off with every intention of doing the exact opposite

Is that what you think happened?

That is exactly what happened.

No it isn't. Not on this planet.

"There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead blah, blah, blah..."
Which planet are you on by the way FD?

People seem to be upset about the word tax even though they will never actually pay any.

Gillard argued for weeks that a fixed price wasn't a tax and I can easily understand why she would have believed that to be true. Imagine agreeing to a fixed price on carbon which is very much like a fixed start to an ETS and then to later find it can technically be called a tax even though nobody pays any tax and the ATO never gets any money from it.

so do YOU have an opinion on the actual question as whether or not a labor senate should support the repeal in the face of an overwhelming mandate for the CT? I would be interested in seeing how highly you regard principle in such matters.

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #99 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 11:19pm

john_g wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 9:48pm:

Work choices was the main, but not the only, reason that I voted Labor in 2007.

In any democracy, the majority is supposed to rule, and hence, the Coalition should have supported its removal, as per the mandate of the Australian people.

To their credit, they did so.
Labor lost any chance of getting my vote as soon as they broke their promise back in early 2011, and when we vote them out this year, they should remove the carbon tax, as per the mandate of the Australian people.

To their credit, they did so.

People keep saying that but as I recall they just didn't oppose the changes, they didn't support them. For the Liberals this was about getting rid of a nasty piece of legislation which was hurting them politically.

Today they are ready to bring a lot of it back - so much for that mandate and workchoices are finished.

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #100 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 11:23pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 11:15pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 11:08pm:

namnugenot wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:57pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:46pm:

namnugenot wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:40pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:35pm:

Although as was the case at the last election you can lie your ar$e off with every intention of doing the exact opposite

Is that what you think happened?

That is exactly what happened.

No it isn't. Not on this planet.

"There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead blah, blah, blah..."
Which planet are you on by the way FD?

People seem to be upset about the word tax even though they will never actually pay any.

Gillard argued for weeks that a fixed price wasn't a tax and I can easily understand why she would have believed that to be true. Imagine agreeing to a fixed price on carbon which is very much like a fixed start to an ETS and then to later find it can technically be called a tax even though nobody pays any tax and the ATO never gets any money from it.

so do YOU have an opinion on the actual question as whether or not a labor senate should support the repeal in the face of an overwhelming mandate for the CT? I would be interested in seeing how highly you regard principle in such matters.

You didn't seem to mind the way Abbott went against the Rudd ETS when there was a clear mandate to introduce it. You seem to like the mandates which suit you but just as happy to ignore the ones you don't like.

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #101 - Mar 31^st, 2013 at 11:34pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 11:15pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 11:08pm:

namnugenot wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:57pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:46pm:

namnugenot wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:40pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:35pm:

Although as was the case at the last election you can lie your ar$e off with every intention of doing the exact opposite

Is that what you think happened?

That is exactly what happened.

No it isn't. Not on this planet.

"There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead blah, blah, blah..."
Which planet are you on by the way FD?

People seem to be upset about the word tax even though they will never actually pay any.

Gillard argued for weeks that a fixed price wasn't a tax and I can easily understand why she would have believed that to be true. Imagine agreeing to a fixed price on carbon which is very much like a fixed start to an ETS and then to later find it can technically be called a tax even though nobody pays any tax and the ATO never gets any money from it.

so do YOU have an opinion on the actual question as whether or not a Labor senate should support the repeal in the face of an overwhelming mandate for the CT? I would be interested in seeing how highly you regard principle in such matters.

so do YOU have an opinion on the actual question

I posted a comment earlier but I am not real sure.

I think the people who vote for them would want Labor to continue supporting action on carbon dioxide. We seen what happened to the Democrats when they sold out their supporters wishes in this same regard involving the GST.

Meg claimed to have honoured the mandate and their support base had taken their pre election guarantee of opposing the GST a little more seriously - the Democrats no longer exist as a result of taking the type of advice you are suggesting for Labor to follow.

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Mnemonic

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #102 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:09am

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:14pm:

Quote:

it would appear that you actively support a dictatorship.

Perhaps you should stick to what I actually say.

Quote:

at the moment you are looking and sounding exactly like the Hitler example you invoked previously.

Democracy gave us Hitler. It did not remove him.

freediver, I agree. The Germans voted for a dictator. They voted for a mass-murderer. They voted for the instigator of the Holocaust. This is a great example of how "democracy" isn't a fool-proof system. This is why checks and balances exist. This is why we have separation of powers. This is why we have constitutional law and put limits on the powers that the police have to arrest and detain people, limits on the military, limits on the Head of State and executive branch. Democracy isn't enough. You need good laws and you need rule of law.

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 7:31pm:

even more pathetic that usual. this is a thread in which you have clearly expressed that democracy - ie the will of the people - is not the final arbiter of what should happen. in addition you say that there is a higher arbiter but you decline to say what that is. Your understanding of democracy is pitiful and your support for undemocratic rule is a disgrace.

There are several good reasons why "democracy" should not be the final arbiter. They are what freediver suggested, it is when the people wish for something that does not uphold the values of liberty and humanity. If the purpose of democracy is to vote for people who uphold these values and the people want something contrary to the values of liberty and humanity, then the government must not do what the people want. Here is what freediver posted:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:09pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:02pm:

then what IS above democracy? Ive said that God is but other than Him. exactly who or what do you suggest is above democracy

Liberty. Democracy. Humanity. Sound familiar?

Quote:

and how is that super-democratic rule imposed or decided?

Undemocratically.

Like freediver said, the values of humanity and liberty must be upheld undemocratically and I agree with that.

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 7:39pm:

Liberty is just a word. without a construct to give it power and force, it is still just a word. Democracy grants that while whatever system you support, does not.

The whole point of democracy is to vote for people who will do your bidding. If we want liberty, let's hope our preferred candidates give us liberty. They are agents that act on our behalf. You don't need a "mechanism" built into the system to create "liberty" when you've got people installed in parliament to advocate for it. That's how the system works.

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 7:39pm:

It is liberty that says that no government has the right to impose policies on the people that the majority want.

Liberty is about freedom to act, not about whether or not someone imposes policies on your country. You still have your freedom to act. You can protest as much as you like. Your freedom is not being inhibited. Shout as loud as you want. Make as much noise as possible. You won't be arrested.

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 7:39pm:

you have set to tell us what your opinion is on whether or not labor should repeal the CT in the face of an overwhelming and undeniable mandate. and if a massive electoral win is not enough would a plebiscite asking that very question suit you? you are the one that champions direct democracy so would DD voting to be rid of the CT be okay with you?

Thanks for getting back to the point.

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Maqqa

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14% - that low?!

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #103 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 2:33am

skippy. wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 8:33pm:

Plus 100% of people that vote GREENS, so even on worse case scenario that is around 45% of the population that demand a price on carbon. bugger the conga line, if they want to push through with their hatred for future generations by denying climate change let the wankers go to a DD. most governments that have gone to a DD have suffered. So it can only help Labor and the GREENS for Abbott to go to one. In fact it will take so long to get to that point that by then the country would have suffered under phony tony for at least a couple of years, plenty long enough to see him as the lying fraud he is and kick his ass out of the lodge.

Rudd won the election by 52/48 and he claimed a mandate to get rid off Workchoices

You supported this claim at 52%

So at 45% ALP and 55% LIBs we still have a better mandate than Rudd did

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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namnugenot

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Re: Labor to repeal the Carbon Tax?
Reply #104 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 7:47am

Dnarever wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 11:08pm:

namnugenot wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:57pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:46pm:

namnugenot wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:40pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2013 at 6:35pm:

Although as was the case at the last election you can lie your ar$e off with every intention of doing the exact opposite

Is that what you think happened?

That is exactly what happened.

No it isn't. Not on this planet.

"There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead blah, blah, blah..."
Which planet are you on by the way FD?

People seem to be upset about the word tax even though they will never actually pay any.

Gillard argued for weeks that a fixed price wasn't a tax and I can easily understand why she would have believed that to be true. Imagine agreeing to a fixed price on carbon which is very much like a fixed start to an ETS and then to later find it can technically be called a tax even though nobody pays any tax and the ATO never gets any money from it.

Good so there will be no problem if it is withdrawn.

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