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Voting by delegable proxy (Read 29886 times)
Peter Freedman
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #30 - Jan 14th, 2013 at 9:37pm
 
This could also happen under PR, but only if the most popular party cannot form a coalition or minority government. That is technically possible, but unlikely.
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #31 - Jan 14th, 2013 at 9:44pm
 
Quote:
FD it is perfectly possible under First Past The Post for a party to gain the most votes nationwide, yet be soundly defeated in the election. This happened several times in NZ.


Yes. But not on the level of an individual electorate.

Under FPP you could theoretically win with less than 1% of the vote.

Quote:
This could also happen under PR, but only if the most popular party cannot form a coalition or minority government. That is technically possible, but unlikely.


Actually I think it would be highly likely under PR, given the number of parties represented.
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gold_medal
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #32 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 7:29am
 
Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 14th, 2013 at 9:33pm:
FD it is perfectly possible under First Past The Post for a party to gain the most votes nationwide, yet be soundly defeated in the election. This happened several times in NZ.



it is exactly what happened in 2010 here. the Coalition gained 500,000 more votes than labor.

FD's system is horribly complicated and would be a far worse system than currently. Frankly, it doesnt even make sense. it seeks to remove elections and require MPs to be nothing more than vote casters .

and FD. you STILL havent told me how you expect execuitve govt to be formed when there are no elections.
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Peter Freedman
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #33 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 11:48am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2013 at 9:44pm:
Quote:
FD it is perfectly possible under First Past The Post for a party to gain the most votes nationwide, yet be soundly defeated in the election. This happened several times in NZ.


Yes. But not on the level of an individual electorate.

Under FPP you could theoretically win with less than 1% of the vote.

Quote:
This could also happen under PR, but only if the most popular party cannot form a coalition or minority government. That is technically possible, but unlikely.


Actually I think it would be highly likely under PR, given the number of parties represented.


FD, it's not the indivual seats that concern me. It's the final result.

When a system allows one party to govern when it receives fewer votes than another party that system is rotten and needs to be changed.

In NZ a group of concerned citizens with very little money started a campaign for PR. they were opposed by business interests, with wads of cash, and beat them

Kiwis voted first for PR, then for the current system of MMP. And last year, they voted to keep it. Sensible people we Kiwis.

Under MMP parties can stand candidates in seats, but also provide a party list of candidates numbered in order of party preference.

Electors get two votes - one for their local MP, who is elected by FPP. The other vote, and by far the most important one, is for the party they want to govern.

The percentage of the party vote determines how many seats each party gets in Parliament. If this is more than the seats they have won, then their total is added to from people on the list.

It's not a perfect system, but it works and is much fairer that  FPP or preferences.
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gold_medal
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #34 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 12:03pm
 
Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 15th, 2013 at 11:48am:
freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2013 at 9:44pm:
Quote:
FD it is perfectly possible under First Past The Post for a party to gain the most votes nationwide, yet be soundly defeated in the election. This happened several times in NZ.


Yes. But not on the level of an individual electorate.

Under FPP you could theoretically win with less than 1% of the vote.

Quote:
This could also happen under PR, but only if the most popular party cannot form a coalition or minority government. That is technically possible, but unlikely.


Actually I think it would be highly likely under PR, given the number of parties represented.


FD, it's not the indivual seats that concern me. It's the final result.

When a system allows one party to govern when it receives fewer votes than another party that system is rotten and needs to be changed.

In NZ a group of concerned citizens with very little money started a campaign for PR. they were opposed by business interests, with wads of cash, and beat them

Kiwis voted first for PR, then for the current system of MMP. And last year, they voted to keep it. Sensible people we Kiwis.

Under MMP parties can stand candidates in seats, but also provide a party list of candidates numbered in order of party preference.

Electors get two votes - one for their local MP, who is elected by FPP. The other vote, and by far the most important one, is for the party they want to govern.

The percentage of the party vote determines how many seats each party gets in Parliament. If this is more than the seats they have won, then their total is added to from people on the list.

It's not a perfect system, but it works and is much fairer that  FPP or preferences.


Hopw does this work with parties forming coalitions? Most PR systems tend to end up with nobody getting an absolute majority which I find unacceptable to good government. Just as we have seen in our current minorty govt, Gillard has been forced into a variety of daft polcies (plus the carbon tax) all to appease minorities.
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #35 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 12:48pm
 
Quote:
it seeks to remove elections


It removes the need for elections, but you could still have them if you enjoy wasting the Saturday morning of every Australian adult.

Quote:
and require MPs to be nothing more than vote casters


They still need to come up with the bills to vote on, but when it comes to voting you are right - they do not represent their own views or the views of a party, but the views of the voters.

Quote:
you STILL havent told me how you expect execuitve govt to be formed when there are no elections


The same way they are in every other system. You just need to get a group that represents over 50% of the population. The only difference between this and other systems is that it does not require 50% of sitting members to be in that group.

Quote:
When a system allows one party to govern when it receives fewer votes than another party that system is rotten and needs to be changed.


Can you be more specific? Are you talking about first preference votes, or the 2PP votes under a preferential system? Or is this a mangled way of criticising coalition governments?

Quote:
It's not a perfect system, but it works and is much fairer that  FPP or preferences.


The problem I have with what you described is that local members are elected on a FPP basis. Perhaps that is necessary in order to get MMP without adding a huge number of extra seats. Some people think their local rep is important. If the majority of your electorate thinks another candidate should have gotten in instead, the majority should have their way.

Quote:
Most PR systems tend to end up with nobody getting an absolute majority which I find unacceptable to good government.


Why is it unacceptable? It is an artificial concentration of power in the hands of a minority. It happens regularly in Australia under our current system. The Liberal party rarely gets an absolute majority without the Nats. Combining these two parties like they did in QLD is a bad thing for democracy, because it reduces voter choice - it is probably the main cause of Katter's success.

Quote:
Just as we have seen in our current minorty govt, Gillard has been forced into a variety of daft polcies (plus the carbon tax) all to appease minorities.


She was not forced. There is always a choice. People who complain about this seem to forget that the major party has a lot to loose in making such deals and there is a clear path for the public to punish them.
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Peter Freedman
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #36 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 1:24pm
 
GM, coalition or minority govts are very likely under PR. Either way, the top party may have to adopt policies or give some of theIr own away.

It has to keep remembering it doesn't have a mandate.
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Peter Freedman
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #37 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 1:37pm
 
FD, of course I am talking about first preferences. I find a system that gives your vote to someone you don't want to win antiquated.

In researching this, I found an election where FIFTH preferences had to be counted to get a result! If there were only five people in the race, then some votes went to the candidate voters wanted least.

This system cannot be tinkered with, it should be thrown into the dustbin of history where it belongs. It was only dreamed up because in the 1930s two conservative parties split the vote and let Labor win a particular seat.
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gold_medal
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #38 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 2:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 15th, 2013 at 12:48pm:
Quote:
it seeks to remove elections


It removes the need for elections, but you could still have them if you enjoy wasting the Saturday morning of every Australian adult.

Quote:
and require MPs to be nothing more than vote casters


They still need to come up with the bills to vote on, but when it comes to voting you are right - they do not represent their own views or the views of a party, but the views of the voters.

Quote:
you STILL havent told me how you expect execuitve govt to be formed when there are no elections


The same way they are in every other system. You just need to get a group that represents over 50% of the population. The only difference between this and other systems is that it does not require 50% of sitting members to be in that group.

Quote:
When a system allows one party to govern when it receives fewer votes than another party that system is rotten and needs to be changed.


Can you be more specific? Are you talking about first preference votes, or the 2PP votes under a preferential system? Or is this a mangled way of criticising coalition governments?

Quote:
It's not a perfect system, but it works and is much fairer that  FPP or preferences.


The problem I have with what you described is that local members are elected on a FPP basis. Perhaps that is necessary in order to get MMP without adding a huge number of extra seats. Some people think their local rep is important. If the majority of your electorate thinks another candidate should have gotten in instead, the majority should have their way.

Quote:
Most PR systems tend to end up with nobody getting an absolute majority which I find unacceptable to good government.


Why is it unacceptable? It is an artificial concentration of power in the hands of a minority. It happens regularly in Australia under our current system. The Liberal party rarely gets an absolute majority without the Nats. Combining these two parties like they did in QLD is a bad thing for democracy, because it reduces voter choice - it is probably the main cause of Katter's success.

Quote:
Just as we have seen in our current minorty govt, Gillard has been forced into a variety of daft polcies (plus the carbon tax) all to appease minorities.


She was not forced. There is always a choice. People who complain about this seem to forget that the major party has a lot to loose in making such deals and there is a clear path for the public to punish them.


this just gets sillier as it gets along. so now you are proposing that govt be formed by a minority of MPs? The more you detail this idea the sloppier it becomes. There is a good reason why nobody on the planet has anything even approximating this idea. it is full of holes and depends onthe involvement and passion of the voters - which simply doesnt exist in 90% of the population.
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gold_medal
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #39 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 2:13pm
 
Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 15th, 2013 at 1:24pm:
GM, coalition or minority govts are very likely under PR. Either way, the top party may have to adopt policies or give some of theIr own away.

It has to keep remembering it doesn't have a mandate.


thats because under the PR system, getting a mandate is next to impossible. That doesnt mean that a mandate isnt there, but rather that it is impossible to prove in the Special Olympics voting system.
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #40 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 2:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 15th, 2013 at 12:48pm:
Quote:
it seeks to remove elections


It removes the need for elections, but you could still have them if you enjoy wasting the Saturday morning of every Australian adult.

Quote:
and require MPs to be nothing more than vote casters


They still need to come up with the bills to vote on, but when it comes to voting you are right - they do not represent their own views or the views of a party, but the views of the voters.

Quote:
you STILL havent told me how you expect execuitve govt to be formed when there are no elections


The same way they are in every other system. You just need to get a group that represents over 50% of the population. The only difference between this and other systems is that it does not require 50% of sitting members to be in that group.

Quote:
When a system allows one party to govern when it receives fewer votes than another party that system is rotten and needs to be changed.


Can you be more specific? Are you talking about first preference votes, or the 2PP votes under a preferential system? Or is this a mangled way of criticising coalition governments?

Quote:
It's not a perfect system, but it works and is much fairer that  FPP or preferences.


The problem I have with what you described is that local members are elected on a FPP basis. Perhaps that is necessary in order to get MMP without adding a huge number of extra seats. Some people think their local rep is important. If the majority of your electorate thinks another candidate should have gotten in instead, the majority should have their way.

Quote:
Most PR systems tend to end up with nobody getting an absolute majority which I find unacceptable to good government.


Why is it unacceptable? It is an artificial concentration of power in the hands of a minority. It happens regularly in Australia under our current system. The Liberal party rarely gets an absolute majority without the Nats. Combining these two parties like they did in QLD is a bad thing for democracy, because it reduces voter choice - it is probably the main cause of Katter's success.

Quote:
Just as we have seen in our current minorty govt, Gillard has been forced into a variety of daft polcies (plus the carbon tax) all to appease minorities.


She was not forced. There is always a choice. People who complain about this seem to forget that the major party has a lot to loose in making such deals and there is a clear path for the public to punish them.


the single highlighted phrase is all anyone needs to dispense with your proposal. 'eliminates elections'. it really doesnt get any less democratic than that.
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #41 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 8:15pm
 
Quote:
I find a system that gives your vote to someone you don't want to win antiquated.


Preferential voting never does that. This is a common misunderstanding.

Quote:
In researching this, I found an election where FIFTH preferences had to be counted to get a result!


Sure, if it goes down to the wire, then all preferences need to be distributed - how many merely depends on how many candidates there are.

Quote:
If there were only five people in the race, then some votes went to the candidate voters wanted least.


This is never possible.

Quote:
this just gets sillier as it gets along. so now you are proposing that govt be formed by a minority of MPs?


Sure. Why is that so silly? Under the proposals MPs do not have equal weighting. Some may have 10 times the voting power of current MPs. You appear to be confusing this with minority government under our current system. The MPs that form government, whether they are a minority or majority of MPs, would have to have majority power in the house and be able to rule.

Quote:
it is full of holes and depends onthe involvement and passion of the voters


You keep making vague statements along these lines, but you are wrong. I have no idea why you are wrong. Perhaps you should elaborate on why you think it depends on involvement of voters. It could depend less on voter involvement than our current system.

Quote:
That doesnt mean that a mandate isnt there, but rather that it is impossible to prove in the Special Olympics voting system.


What do you mean by 'impossible to prove'?

Quote:
the single highlighted phrase is all anyone needs to dispense with your proposal. 'eliminates elections'. it really doesnt get any less democratic than that.


You are confused GM. People still vote under the proposal. You can even have elections where everyone has to vote on the same day. The point is, it is not necessary.
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #42 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 8:40pm
 
The problem with preferential voting is that each preference counts for one vote if the votes were redistributed for any reason. I don't think that necessarily reflects the intention of the voter.

What if the second preference was worth half as much as the first preference, and the third preference was worth half as much as the second preference, so that by the time you get down to 5th preferences, the vote is only worth 0.0625 of a vote?

I don't believe that anyone who voted for somebody as a 5th preference had any intention of giving them much of a vote, let alone a whole vote.

At least this way, it better reflects the intention of the voter.

As far as voting by delegatable proxy is concerned, you wouldn't get much participation.
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John Smith
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #43 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 9:03pm
 
I think the biggest problem is who becomes accountable to whom? Take health  ... if on every major issue , the health ministers proxy changes to a new player, who takes responsibility for health? You cannot change ministers every few months or nothing gets done.

I like the idea in theory, just don't see it working in practice.
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Re: Voting by delegable proxy
Reply #44 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 9:53pm
 
Quote:
The problem with preferential voting is that each preference counts for one vote if the votes were redistributed for any reason. I don't think that necessarily reflects the intention of the voter.


What do you think their intention would be? That their opinion should count for less?

Quote:
What if the second preference was worth half as much as the first preference


Then you would introduce all of the problems with FPTP, to half the extent.

Quote:
I don't believe that anyone who voted for somebody as a 5th preference had any intention of giving them much of a vote, let alone a whole vote.


I do quite often, and it is my intention that my vote ends up with them if my other preferences are exhausted. You miss the point Muso that if people do vote in such a way than many of their early preferences get exhausted, it is going to be bleeding obvious to them that this is likely to happen.

Quote:
As far as voting by delegatable proxy is concerned, you wouldn't get much participation.


You would get as much participation as the current system. One of the benefits over direct democracy (with which you appear to have it confused) is that it achieves the same outcome without the burden of participation.

Quote:
if on every major issue , the health ministers proxy changes to a new player


How would that happen John?

Quote:
You cannot change ministers every few months or nothing gets done.


There is no reason why this would happen.
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