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What will be our fate [after we pass over]??? (Read 14852 times)
muso
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #15 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 10:01pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 15th, 2013 at 9:47pm:
Brilliant. All our cells change all the time but we remain ourselves. But if the mental landscape changes , that's somehow conclusive prove - or t least indication of - what?  I don't see things the same way as I saw them when I was 7 - and see other thing exactly the same way. 

More to the point, those who knew me at 7 and now, and if they survive me, at my death - will they think of me as one person or will they think of separate and different people, inhabiting my changing body but having different outlooks and memories at 7, at 25, 35, and now?
Of course not. Set up a fragmented, atomised way of seeing and you will see everything fragmented and atomised.



Trust you to get the wrong end of the stick.

Can the stuff that makes us, define us?

Is a wave on the ocean made of water? If the sea is calm, has the wave disappeared, or is it still there as water?

Quote:
The four catagories of existance, non-existance, both existance and non-existance, and neither existance nor non-existance, are spiderwebs among spiderwebs which can never take hold of the enormous bird of reality.
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Amadd
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #16 - Jan 15th, 2013 at 11:42pm
 
Quote:
Can the stuff that makes us, define us?


I think that to an extent, we are what we eat.
What we eat (or drink) will help shape our bodies and feeling of wellbeing. => hence thoughts => hence actions.

But as most of us know, our fibres are already programmed to react in a similar manner to familiar environmental conditions.
So I don't think that we should be too hard on ourselves if we can't seem to make the simplest of changes that we have consciously set for ourselves. And in the same vein, not too self-congratulatory of the better aspect of changes which may naturally occur with an aging body or changed environmental conditions.

Quote:
a wave on the ocean made of water? If the sea is calm, has the wave disappeared, or is it still there as water?


Like ice in liquid form, it's a wave in stationary form isn't it?  Grin

For a wave to appear, it requires some type of external energy. If there is an analogy between waves and the thoughts that define our actions, then there would be an external energy which precedes our thoughts. Food for thought I suppose.


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Yadda
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #17 - Jan 16th, 2013 at 1:25am
 
muso wrote on Jan 15th, 2013 at 10:01pm:
Soren wrote on Jan 15th, 2013 at 9:47pm:
Brilliant. All our cells change all the time but we remain ourselves. But if the mental landscape changes , that's somehow conclusive prove - or t least indication of - what?  I don't see things the same way as I saw them when I was 7 - and see other thing exactly the same way. 

More to the point, those who knew me at 7 and now, and if they survive me, at my death - will they think of me as one person or will they think of separate and different people, inhabiting my changing body but having different outlooks and memories at 7, at 25, 35, and now?
Of course not. Set up a fragmented, atomised way of seeing and you will see everything fragmented and atomised.



Trust you to get the wrong end of the stick.

Can the stuff that makes us, define us?

Is a wave on the ocean made of water? If the sea is calm, has the wave disappeared, or is it still there as water?

Quote:
The four catagories of existance, non-existance, both existance and non-existance, and neither existance nor non-existance, are spiderwebs among spiderwebs which can never take hold of the enormous bird of reality.




response....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1358262216/0#0

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Sir Spot of Borg
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #18 - Jan 16th, 2013 at 5:04am
 
Death and taxes are inevitable. You wont escape it by trying to believe in fairy tales.

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muso
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #19 - Jan 16th, 2013 at 5:46am
 
Amadd wrote on Jan 15th, 2013 at 11:42pm:
Quote:
Can the stuff that makes us, define us?


I think that to an extent, we are what we eat.
What we eat (or drink) will help shape our bodies and feeling of wellbeing. => hence thoughts => hence actions.

But as most of us know, our fibres are already programmed to react in a similar manner to familiar environmental conditions.
So I don't think that we should be too hard on ourselves if we can't seem to make the simplest of changes that we have consciously set for ourselves. And in the same vein, not too self-congratulatory of the better aspect of changes which may naturally occur with an aging body or changed environmental conditions.

Quote:
a wave on the ocean made of water? If the sea is calm, has the wave disappeared, or is it still there as water?


Like ice in liquid form, it's a wave in stationary form isn't it?  Grin

For a wave to appear, it requires some type of external energy. If there is an analogy between waves and the thoughts that define our actions, then there would be an external energy which precedes our thoughts. Food for thought I suppose.




I've often thought that from a material sense at least, we are more often like the waves in the water than the water itself. 

We continually recycle the matter that makes up our bodies, and the water that makes up to 60% of our body weight is the most transient of all. With each breath, we transfer part of our body to the atmosphere and at the same time exchange matter with the atmosphere and other living beings.    

At any given time we can perceive our physical reality, but it's a constantly changing reality, and over time, we share these atoms that at any given moment, make up our bodies.

We can define a living being in terms of processes more readily than a specific set of atoms that are unique to us.

The wave can't exist without water, but the water doesn't define the wave. You can't bottle a wave. As a wave travels, it leaves the water behind. The water itself doesn't travel forward with the wave. It mainly goes up and down, or travels in a circular motion.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #20 - Jan 16th, 2013 at 8:41am
 
Yadda wrote on Jan 15th, 2013 at 9:25am:
NoN....
Quote:
It's not hard to grasp the notion (and easily demonstrated) that to destroy the brain (or parts thereof) is to destroy memory / faculty / personality


That the flesh deteriorates and loses its 'facility' to function in this reality, cannot be doubted.

No argument.


But many people believe know, that the flesh is our only means to 'convey' the essence of the 'personality'.

And without the body, without 'our' body, we are nothing.

Correct ?         Grin          Cheesy

Again, if you want to believe that.

Yes, the destruction of memory and personality from brain deterioration is the fly in the ointment for magical thinkers, who are forced to imagine that memories (which are, anyway, grossly imperfect and highly contingent), are somehow stored in a celestial vault and returned to us after death, such that we can be who we are (whatever that means) in the after world.

No one, I'm sure, would believe that an amputated limb survives death years after it has been detached... Not so with memories... To the magical thinker they (memories), of course, must somehow survive for there to be an 'I' in the afterlife.

For believers to accept that memories, too, pass away, and still maintain their belief in an afterlife, they would then need to imagine what, exactly, would or could survive death... But a surviving essence, devoid of an 'I' (the child of memory), is not 'me' and therefore the reward (and punishment) factor (which defines the primary reason for believing in an afterlife in the first place) is eliminated. They are then left with the prospect of (after)-living as 'celestial zombies' - no will, no self... no I... What would be the point to that existence?

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Yadda
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #21 - Jan 16th, 2013 at 9:54am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 16th, 2013 at 8:41am:
Yadda wrote on Jan 15th, 2013 at 9:25am:
NoN....
Quote:
It's not hard to grasp the notion (and easily demonstrated) that to destroy the brain (or parts thereof) is to destroy memory / faculty / personality


That the flesh deteriorates and loses its 'facility' to function in this reality, cannot be doubted.

No argument.


But many people believe know, that the flesh is our only means to 'convey' the essence of the 'personality'.

And without the body, without 'our' body, we are nothing.

Correct ?         Grin          Cheesy

Again, if you want to believe that.

Yes, the destruction of memory and personality from brain deterioration is the fly in the ointment for magical thinkers, who are forced to imagine that memories (which are, anyway, grossly imperfect and highly contingent), are somehow stored in a celestial vault and returned to us after death, such that we can be who we are (whatever that means) in the after world.

No one, I'm sure, would believe that an amputated limb survives death years after it has been detached... Not so with memories... To the magical thinker they (memories), of course, must somehow survive for there to be an 'I' in the afterlife.

For believers to accept that memories, too, pass away, and still maintain their belief in an afterlife, they would then need to imagine what, exactly, would or could survive death... But a surviving essence, devoid of an 'I' (the child of memory), is not 'me' and therefore the reward (and punishment) factor (which defines the primary reason for believing in an afterlife in the first place) is eliminated. They are then left with the prospect of (after)-living as 'celestial zombies' - no will, no self... no I... What would be the point to that existence?





NoN,

I agree, that if you are correct in this, then for believers, for 'us' believers, to hope in 'our' redemption, it is a futile hope.





So, where do i 'stand' then, is it on shifting sand beneath my feet ?

Certainly my belief is, that that, is where all of unbelieving mankind are standing.

My belief is that my God is much cleverer than men can imagine.     Tongue



In my experience, 'God' has certainly showed himself to be beyond my capacity to comprehend him, i.e. in his power/capability.

But i still keep trying to comprehend him [in mediation].

And his still keeps surprising me [from time to time].




Is my fate to be a 'celestial zombie' ?

I can't imagine that.        Tongue        Tongue

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Yadda
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #22 - Jan 16th, 2013 at 10:03am
 

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Amadd
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Mo

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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #23 - Jan 16th, 2013 at 4:53pm
 
Quote:
For believers to accept that memories, too, pass away, and still maintain their belief in an afterlife, they would then need to imagine what, exactly, would or could survive death... But a surviving essence, devoid of an 'I' (the child of memory), is not 'me' and therefore the reward (and punishment) factor (which defines the primary reason for believing in an afterlife in the first place) is eliminated. They are then left with the prospect of (after)-living as 'celestial zombies' - no will, no self... no I... What would be the point to that existence?


I tend to believe that there exists some comprehensive cellular memory, and it is said that a single atom could one day be used to store memory.
http://uw.physics.wisc.edu/~himpsel/memory.html

In the case of alzheimer's sufferers, I tend to think that the memory still exists, but the normal method of access has been altered.

If it is the case that single atoms are able to store vast amounts of memory, then it may follow that atoms actually grow in propensity for wisdom......a wise old atom  Grin

So within the ever changing forms, ashes to ashes, shifting sands etc., we may be a very important part of an ever learning universe where our experiences and knowledge are not lost forever, but passed on to a developing universe.

It may be a way out theory, but it's better than thinking that our lives are totally pointless. Cheesy

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #24 - Jan 16th, 2013 at 8:34pm
 
Yadda wrote on Jan 16th, 2013 at 9:54am:
NoN,

I agree, that if you are correct in this, then for believers, for 'us' believers, to hope in 'our' redemption, it is a futile hope.

Redemption from what?

The destruction of memory also includes those memories for which you would be damned.

Damnation is only just when one's actions can be recalled, as, similarly, awareness of good deeds done is a prerequisite for acceptance of one's apotheosis.

In the absence of memory, it must be left to living others (faculties intact)  to determine the value of our legacy with regard to its worth to the world we leave behind.
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« Last Edit: Jan 16th, 2013 at 8:42pm by NorthOfNorth »  

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Yadda
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #25 - Jan 17th, 2013 at 11:40pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 16th, 2013 at 8:34pm:
Yadda wrote on Jan 16th, 2013 at 9:54am:
NoN,

I agree, that if you are correct in this, then for believers, for 'us' believers, to hope in 'our' redemption, it is a futile hope.



Redemption from what?





Principally, 1/ corruption [spiritual 'death'] and 2/ confusion.



I honestly do not know how to define the, spiritual 'death', that the lost/unredeemed will suffer, except to say that spiritual 'death' will involve their [permanent ?] separation from God.

But if most of mankind hate God, then they won't miss him, will they ?             Tongue





+++


2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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muso
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #26 - Jan 18th, 2013 at 7:01am
 
Amadd wrote on Jan 16th, 2013 at 4:53pm:
I tend to believe that there exists some comprehensive cellular memory, and it is said that a single atom could one day be used to store memory.
http://uw.physics.wisc.edu/~himpsel/memory.html

In the case of alzheimer's sufferers, I tend to think that the memory still exists, but the normal method of access has been altered.

If it is the case that single atoms are able to store vast amounts of memory, then it may follow that atoms actually grow in propensity for wisdom......a wise old atom  Grin

So within the ever changing forms, ashes to ashes, shifting sands etc., we may be a very important part of an ever learning universe where our experiences and knowledge are not lost forever, but passed on to a developing universe.

It may be a way out theory, but it's better than thinking that our lives are totally pointless. Cheesy



It is way out. For a memory to be formed requires the input (visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory etc.  If any of these sense are damaged, then clearly the data cannot be propagated.

Then, sensory input is propagated via the thalamous, and this is severely baud limited to about 50000 bits per second, where a bit per second is equated to a neural firing (from MRI studies).That in itself means that we can't physically process and take in everything that we sense.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #27 - Jan 18th, 2013 at 8:00am
 
Yadda wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 11:40pm:
But if most of mankind hate God, then they won't miss him, will they ?       

If hate and love are at the opposite extremes of the same arc, then to hate 'god' (as with love) is to always be thinking of 'god' and, by that, to be united with 'god'... The fate of both the theist and the antitheist.

To lose the memories that constitute one's comprehension of 'god', however, is to not miss 'god'.

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Yadda
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #28 - Jan 18th, 2013 at 9:38am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 18th, 2013 at 8:00am:
Yadda wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 11:40pm:
But if most of mankind hate God, then they won't miss him, will they ?       


If hate and love are at the opposite extremes of the same arc, then to hate 'god' (as with love) is to always be thinking of 'god' and, by that, to be united with 'god'... The fate of both the theist and the antitheist.

To lose the memories that constitute one's comprehension of 'god', however, is to not miss 'god'.





Not so.

In this physical realm good and evil can exist in very close proximity to each other.

Not so, in the spirit realm.

Luke 16:26
.....between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.



But in this place [in this physical realm], if goodness and evil are mingled, goodness is polluted, by the evil.

In this place [in this physical realm], if we join that which is precious with what is vile, we do not in that act of joining, 'improve' that which is vile.

We merely corrupt that which is precious.


In this physical realm light and darkness cannot co-exist [in the same place].
Though those who choose the darkness [as their 'sanctuary'], may be able to see a distant light [from within the midst of the darkness]....
It is impossible for those who have [chosen to] become a part of the darkness! to approach the fullness of the light, or to ever live in the light.


Good and evil, light and darkness.
It is our human purpose to choose one, and to reject the other.





Quote:
If we tolerate evil, and wickedness, in others, WE WILL BECOME EVIL AND WICKED OURSELVES.
.....and today ppl just don't get that truth, IN FACT THEY SEEM TO STRENUOUSLY DENY THAT LOGIC.

When we embrace the concept of 'tolerance', of what is clearly evil,
...we OURSELVES become the evil we tolerate.

i.e.
A good person, cannot tolerate evil, in his/her presence.

i.e.
NO PERSON CAN TOLERATE EVIL, ....UNLESS THAT PERSON IS EVIL.


And our [so called!] 'tolerance' of evil, is not tolerance.

Our 'tolerance' of evil, merely reveals the wickedness which is ALREADY within us!




When we choose to embrace, and to be 'tolerant', of those [in our midst] who are wicked,
...we OURSELVES, always become wicked.

We are always corrupted, by the wickedness which we [would] choose to tolerate.




2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.



A Holy people.
The Holy 'land'.
A Holy spirit [God's spirit].
...on a spiritual level these concepts are all connected with each other.



"I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people."


Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.


Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Amadd
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Re: What will be our fate [after we pass over]???
Reply #29 - Jan 18th, 2013 at 12:45pm
 
Yes of course Smiley
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