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illegal Jewish immigration into Israel (Read 19515 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #45 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 10:05am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2012 at 8:24am:
Oh dear. How about we start with you quoting me making that claim. Slaughtering non-Muslims was only part of Muhammed's 'mission'. Collecting wives, including pre-pubescent ones, was another of his favourite things.


ah yes, sorry I keep forgetting - no direct quote = you never said it - even though you agree with it  Cheesy

So why don't we start with the second sentence of your post: "Slaughtering non-Muslims was only part of Muhammed's 'mission'.", which we can marry up with another one of your quotes, that muslims who go around killing non-muslims are merely "following Muhammed's lead. ". Being extremely careful not to misquote you, how about you elaborate on these statements for us? You are scarce on detail here. What is the context of your use of the word "slaughter"? - do you use the term to describe legitimate acts committed as part of any war of self defence that was forced upon the muslims at the time? Or do you use the term to describe naked aggression of Muhammad, indiscriminately went about slaughtering non-muslims for his own lust for power/religious zealotry or whatever? If its the latter (which appears reasonable, given your choice of the emotionally charged word "slaughter"), then I think its reasonable that you provide evidence for this claim - don't you?

freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2012 at 8:24am:
Collecting wives, including pre-pubescent ones, was another of his favourite things.


And what is the point of bringing this up? Are you simply making a moral judgment about this? You appear to be. If so, to what end?

freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2012 at 8:24am:
you could just stop wasting everyone's time.


I think you miss the irony of starting this thread with the stated purpose of pointing out someone's incorrect facts - and throughout, casually throw around the most baseless and outrageous smears about a group of people and their prophet. And since I know you are just going to reply with "quote me" - here are a sample:

1. The only thing that inevitably lead to the expulsion of so many of them [arabs] was attempting to kill all the Jews.

2. Unlike Muslims, we do not insist on mass slaughters every time there is a change in leadership.

3. Palestinians attempted their own holocaust

4. on why muslims want to slaughter jews:
Not for the hell of it. They are following Muhammed's   lead.

And before you bring out your predictable "you quote me out of context" - it is the claims themselves that are baseless, not the context. To spell it for you:
1. that arabs attempted to "kill all the jews" has no basis in fact.

2. That "Muslims" (collective) insist on "mass slaughter" whenever there is a change in government has no basis in fact.

3. That the Palestinians attempted their own holocaust has no basis in fact.

4. that the arab wars against the state of Israel was merely a case of muslims following Mohammad's lead - has no basis in fact.

There, I've completely flogged a dead horse I know, but your continued obstinacy has forced my hand. I think its relevant to point these things out given the entire stated purpose of this thread. The point? Well, getting back to the topic, the technicalities of the legality or otherwise of the jewish immigration is, as I pointed out from the start, a non-issue. Abu has only ever argued the term from a universal morality/human rights point of view - and he made that clear when he stated that it was "illegal" only in the sense that it was opposed by the actual people living on the land - and who would be most affected by it.

So after this topic was clearly established as a fundamental issue of basic human rights, you then started pulling out arguments related to why the arabs are not worthy of such human rights - thus the tired old baseless crap - ie muslims lost all claim to human rights after they started trying to kill all jews and instigate their own holocaust. And as if we had any doubt about the reasons for this alleged attempted holocaust, you simply dismiss it with "well they were just following Muhammad's lead". You see you reduce the entire conflict to a simple matter of a group of irrational religious zealots - bent on killing all the jews because their prophet told them to. Thats what I mean by answering bigotry with bigotry. If the purpose of this thread was to set the facts straight (which you claim), then you single handedly destroyed it.
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Yadda
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #46 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 11:59am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 28th, 2012 at 10:05am:

..........I think you miss the irony of starting this thread with the stated purpose of pointing out someone's incorrect facts - and throughout, casually throw around the most baseless and outrageous smears about a group of people and their prophet. And since I know you are just going to reply with "quote me" - here are a sample:

1. The only thing that inevitably lead to the expulsion of so many of them [arabs] was attempting to kill all the Jews.

2. Unlike Muslims, we do not insist on mass slaughters every time there is a change in leadership.

3. Palestinians attempted their own holocaust

4. on why muslims want to slaughter jews:
Not for the hell of it. They are following Muhammed's   lead.

And before you bring out your predictable "you quote me out of context" - it is the claims themselves that are baseless, not the context. To spell it for you:
1. that arabs attempted to "kill all the jews" has no basis in fact.



2. That "Muslims" (collective) insist on "mass slaughter" whenever there is a change in government has no basis in fact.




3. That the Palestinians attempted their own holocaust has no basis in fact.

4. that the arab wars against the state of Israel was merely a case of muslims following Mohammad's lead - has no basis in fact.

There, I've completely flogged a dead horse I know, but your continued obstinacy has forced my hand. I think its relevant to point these things out given the entire stated purpose of this thread. The point? Well, getting back to the topic, the technicalities of the legality or otherwise of the jewish immigration is, as I pointed out from the start, a non-issue. Abu has only ever argued the term from a universal morality/human rights point of view - and he made that clear when he stated that it was "illegal" only in the sense that it was opposed by the actual people living on the land - and who would be most affected by it.

So after this topic was clearly established as a fundamental issue of basic human rights, you then started pulling out arguments related to why the arabs are not worthy of such human rights - thus the tired old baseless crap - ie muslims lost all claim to human rights after they started trying to kill all jews and instigate their own holocaust. And as if we had any doubt about the reasons for this alleged attempted holocaust, you simply dismiss it with "well they were just following Muhammad's lead". You see you reduce the entire conflict to a simple matter of a group of irrational religious zealots - bent on killing all the jews because their prophet told them to. Thats what I mean by answering bigotry with bigotry. If the purpose of this thread was to set the facts straight (which you claim), then you single handedly destroyed it.





Response to #2;

Yes, it does have a basis in fact!



The DOCTRINALLY established moslem war strategy when overcoming an old regime [and whether it was an 'ill-favoured' moslem regime, or, and infidel regime, it is ALWAYS deemed by the new moslem victors to have been un-ISLAMIC    e.g. Syria today, fighting the rebels, both sides claim to be the 'rightly guided' moslems] is to use terror and violence, to consolidate their gains.

And the Koran itself, and other ISLAMIC 'religious' texts do counsel such a path.


POINT #1,
"It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land....."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/...

Koran [8:67 above] meaning here, first moslems should beleaguer and slaughter their enemies in the land, to terrorise, to cower them.

And then later, moslems will more easily be able to defeat, and enslave a pliant, fearful enemy people.

In 'promoting' ISLAM to the whole earth, all REAL moslems understand, that terror is BOTH, the objective, and the method!

i.e.
#1,
ISLAMIC authority [government] is gained legitimately through the use of terror.

#2,
And, it is legitimate to maintain ISLAMIC authority through the use of terror.


POINT #2,
Allah's Apostle said,
"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."

hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):....."

hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062








POINT #3,

AGAIN;
And, it is legitimate to maintain ISLAMIC authority through the use of terror.



"Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City....whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy)."

Koran 33.60,61


Those "seize and slay" acts
.....are commanded by Allah himself.


And Allah reveals no 'qualification' [e.g. there is no;
"take him to a law court."
],
......Allah commands moslems
"whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain"
, ......i.e. those who are perceived as resisting, and opposing, the spread of his law.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #47 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 12:12pm
 
we can skip over your (mis)quoting of quranic verses and hadiths Yadda - because we were not talking about any sort of doctrinal basis of these claims - but rather what muslims have demonstrated in real life.

For every Syria, there is Egypt and Tunisia - where the islamic (and other) protestors overthrew the secular dictatorship without resorting to violence - the only violence coming from the secularist regime. (and indeed even in Syria, it is fairly obvious that the opposition violence was only a response to secular regime violence against them). Or we could talk about Indonesia (the largest muslim country) who smoothly went from a dictatorship to a thriving democracy with no violence at all. Thats in regards to point 2.

As for points 1 and 3 - I can only repeat that the claim that the Palestinians "attempted their own holocaust" by going to war with the new state of Israel in 1948 has no basis in fact - irrespective of what Islamic jurisprudence or the example of the prophet may or may not have said.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #48 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 12:48pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 28th, 2012 at 10:05am:
freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2012 at 8:24am:
Oh dear. How about we start with you quoting me making that claim. Slaughtering non-Muslims was only part of Muhammed's 'mission'. Collecting wives, including pre-pubescent ones, was another of his favourite things.


ah yes, sorry I keep forgetting - no direct quote = you never said it - even though you agree with it  Cheesy


Every time you make up what I said, you change the meaning in a subtle yet important way. That is why 90% of my discussions with you involve me patiently pointing out that I did not actually say what you accuse me of. I am not sure how long you expect me to keep playing this game, but it is hardly worth my effort if you stumble over the meaning of every single post.

Quote:
And what is the point of bringing this up? Are you simply making a moral judgment about this? You appear to be. If so, to what end?


I was merely pointing out that slaughtering is hardly the only thing that early Muslims got up to. Raping was just an example of another of their interests. The reason I had to point this out is because, as usual, you made up what I said instead of responding to what I actually said.

Perhaps you have spots problem of not knowing how to copy and paste or use the quote function. If you need help, just ask.
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #49 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 1:00pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 28th, 2012 at 12:12pm:
we can skip over your (mis)quoting of quranic verses and hadiths Yadda - because we were not talking about any sort of doctrinal basis of these claims - but rather what muslims have demonstrated in real life.

For every Syria, there is Egypt and Tunisia - where the islamic (and other) protestors overthrew the secular dictatorship without resorting to violence - the only violence coming from the secularist regime. (and indeed even in Syria, it is fairly obvious that the opposition violence was only a response to secular regime violence against them). Or we could talk about Indonesia (the largest muslim country) who smoothly went from a dictatorship to a thriving democracy with no violence at all. Thats in regards to point 2.

As for points 1 and 3 - I can only repeat that the claim that the Palestinians "attempted their own holocaust" by going to war with the new state of Israel in 1948 has no basis in fact - irrespective of what Islamic jurisprudence or the example of the prophet may or may not have said.



RESPONSE;

When confronted with truth;

Deny the truth.

That is what moslems [the kuffar] do.







Part of the contemporary criticism by moslems, of 'unbelievers', is that the 'unbelievers' are vile people who are cursed by Allah.
....they are the 'Kuffar'.

"kuffar" = = "...is an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuffar

NOTE THE WORDS,
"........a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."




The moslems are the kuffar, and the moslems [lost in their own lies], do not even recognise that fact.

Cheesy      Grin      Grini
+++

AGAIN - Who is the kuffar ???,

"........a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."



For the 'religion' of ISLAM, lying and deceit, to further the moslem cause, is a 'holy' religious doctrine;


Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya



Google;
taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit


Google;
we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #50 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 1:16pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2012 at 12:48pm:
Raping was just an example of another of their interests.


I see you still don't quite understand the concept of substantiating claims FD. You see, here you are making a slur against an entire group of people. Like most slurs, you provide not one shred of evidence to support it. Kindly back this rape claim with some sort of evidence, or shut up and stop trolling us with your bigotry.  Smiley

Yadda wrote on Nov 28th, 2012 at 1:00pm:
RESPONSE;

When confronted with truth;

Deny the truth.

That is what moslems [the kuffar] do.


Please spend 2 seconds comprehending my response yadda before wasting everyone's time with more irrelevant nonsense.

I am not denying the claims on islamic jurisprudence you make (though I suspect as usual they are misquoted), I'm merely pointing out they are irrelevant to the question of what muslims did in practice - vis-a-vis the wars against Israel, and how muslims go about changing governments - particularly in the last few years.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #51 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 6:30pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Nov 27th, 2012 at 9:12pm:
You didn't answer one single point fd. Want to try and respond to that post again?


Still waiting on a response to post #36 fd, whenever you get the time... no hurry.
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #52 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 6:57pm
 
You should start with post #37 then Abu. Just because I did not tell you what you want to hear does not mean I did not respond. Since you gave up on pretending the Jews "mass illegally immigrated" to the area (a claim you will no doubt trot out again once this thread dies), your argument has consisted of little more than insisting that criticism of Palestinian Muslims equate to tolerance of being the victim of your absurd characterisations of what went on there. Your questions are either heavily loaded or completely irrelevant, so you can hardly expect me to waste my time with a detailed response every time you dream up a different way of putting it.
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #53 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 7:01pm
 
You did not address one single point from post #36.

I figured as much. when the questioning really heats up, you are not interested in continuing.

You and I both know you cannot answer any of those questions honestly, without admitting your claims about Jewish immigration into Palestine are false.
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #54 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 7:07pm
 
Sure I did. In fact the debate moved on from there on several of the issues you raised. And I addressed one point again in my most recent post.
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #55 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 8:58pm
 
Anyway here it is again, another chance for you to answer...

If you cannot, then just admit you're incapable of answering (as you know it will invalidate all your previous claims).



freediver wrote on Nov 26th, 2012 at 8:36am:
Our government gets replaced every few years Abu. This is perfectly legal. I have no doubt that one day we will even elect a Muslim, though I am sure you would not consider them a proper Muslim. The Americans just elected a black man from a Muslim country as president. Unlike Muslims, we do not insist on mass slaughters every time there is a change in leadership.


Are you honestly trying to compare the Zionist overrunning of Palestine with Australia's 4 yearly government changeovers? So again I'll ask you, if Muslims form militias, and expel Anglos from their towns and sieze power, you'll consider their new government legal? And if they then passed an immigration law forbidding Anglos from immigrating to Australia (even if they were born here) whilst granting every single Muslim in the world instant access to citizenship, you'd also consider that, and the subsequent expulsions and immigration that would result from it to be legal as well?

Please answer this fd, don't avoid it like you do in the next part of your post.

freediver wrote on Nov 26th, 2012 at 8:36am:
That is not what I said Abu. I was merely pointing out that you description of what happened is completely wrong - again. Like I said, it was only when the Palestinians attempted their own holocaust that things got ugly.


So again, I'll ask you to provide us with what you think was the true description of what happened. I've posted nothing but historical facts, and provided links to them on several occasions, none of which you read. You on the other hand have posted nothing of substance at all.
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #56 - Nov 28th, 2012 at 9:14pm
 
Well done Abu, you tracked down some of the rest of the discussion we had that followed on from where you accuse me of not responding to anything. I'm sure if you keep reading you will find the rest.
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #57 - Nov 29th, 2012 at 6:31am
 
You simply can't answer this one at any cost can you?  Grin
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #58 - Nov 29th, 2012 at 6:39am
 
and while your pondering over that FD, don't forget about substantiating your claim that (in your words) "Raping was just an example of another of their [early muslims] interests. "
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Re: illegal Jewish immigration into Israel
Reply #59 - Nov 29th, 2012 at 9:14am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2012 at 6:39am:
and while your pondering over that FD, don't forget about substantiating your claim that (in your words) "Raping was just an example of another of their [early muslims] interests. "

Look at gandalf siding with the muslim. Why would you side with someone who thinks you are a kafur and sub-human to a muslim?
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