Spot asked a good question here:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 6:27am:


The context, so that Spot doesn't accuse me of misrepresenting by leaving it out:

Abu has been busy lately trying to pass off his impotence as benign intent. He has used his inability to overthrow the Australian government as a reason why we should not discuss what he actually wants to do and should only discuss his inability to do it. Spot caught onto this and started insisting that Abu said he did not want the things he was unable to achieve (eg Shariah law imposed on everyone), but now he seems to be catching on to the difference.

So onto the question of what is wrong with it - eg what is wrong with wanting to destroy democracy, take away people's freedom and human rights, stone them to death for thought crimes etc, in the context of being unable to achieve it.

The answer boils down to this: the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. There are 100 different ways to answer this question, but they are just different ways of saying this same thing.

Some examples:

Politics is highly non-linear. It tends to follow a pattern of long periods of mind numbing stagnation interrupted by short periods of 'interesting times'. Democracy has  partly corrected this, but only partly. What this means is that although we appear to live in a stable country that is free of revolution, war etc, it would be naive to assume that this will always be the case, even within our lifetime.

Attitudes like spot's, where we should refrain from criticising extremists on the grounds that they are extremists will help to bring about the 'interesting times'. Suppose Australia were to get invaded one day. It is extremists like Abu and their recruits who would support the invaders in the hope that the outcome is more like what they want.

Another simple explanation is that openly criticising these people makes it harder for them to recruit more extremists. This principle is deeply ingrained in our communal psyche when it comes to most religious and political extremists, but for some reason it has been turned on it's head for Muslims. I suspect this is down to the skill with which they play the victim card and switch between their political and relgious hats.

Another reason is that not criticising these people validates their views and makes it more likely that they will turn to violence to achieve their goals. Such violence may be politically impotent and counter productive, but it is violent nonetheless. It is much simpler to counter extremism with worlds now than to wait until we have to counter it more forcefully.

Another good example is that not criticisng them makes it a whole lot easier for them to fool people. Abu and spot are a great example. Without open and frank criticism of them both, spot would have come away thinking he had had an honest discussion with Abu and that Abu had told him he did not want Shariah law, did not want to destroy freedom and democracy, did not want to stone apostates to death etc. The truth itself is the first victim, and it can only go downhill from there.

Saying we should not criticise extremists is just as stupid as saying we should refrain from criticising politicians. Their impotence is balanced by their extremism. To attempt to equate the threats they pose (as spot does with religions) is childish, but they are both threats that need to be countered in a civilised society.

When it comes to Islam specifically, the threat of violence is already genuine. We have had Bali, which counter to spots insistence, did target Australians. We have had plenty of home grown violent jihadis recently, many of whom ended up in jail. If spot had had his way, the police would have turned away on the grounds that the threat does not even exist until after they have blown themselves up on a bus.

Australia is currently in two long wars against Islamic extremism. We are attempting to establish democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. Being a democracy, our foreign policy is dependent on public opinion. If the public is fooled into thinking that people like Abu, and the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan he often claims to speak on behalf of, want democracy, we may end up supporting the very people who want to destroy democracy and replace it with a very real Shariah hell. Abu frequently attempts to pass of the extremists as being both benign and respresenting the will of the majority in these places. There are very clear and very real outcomes from letting such lies go unchallenged.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 8:23am:


You say it all the time spot.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 12^th, 2012 at 6:05am:


Quote:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 12^th, 2012 at 11:17am:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 17^th, 2012 at 12:05pm:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 17^th, 2012 at 8:25am:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:18am:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 9:18am:




Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 1:07pm:



Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 19^th, 2012 at 8:25am:



Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 19^th, 2012 at 8:25am:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 19^th, 2012 at 6:26pm:

Spot it is you who has a campaign of generalisations.

So why did you attempt to pass off Abu's confessions of impotence as benign intent?

Is Abu mainstream or an extremist?

Why are you claiming it is not a problem until he is capable of achieving it? Do you acknowledge the need to confront people who want to destroy democracy and human rights, or do you still think we should ignore the problem and hope it goes away?

No spot, at the moment the goal is to get you to realise there is a difference between what Abu wants and what he is capable of achieving. It has been pretty easy for him to fool you so far, but you are learning, slowly. You were insisting for a long time that you know what Abu wants. Now you seem to realise that you were fooled and you are denying you ever said those things. Like I said, you should own what you say:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 10:16am:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 10:02am:


Abu did not actually say that.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 1:40pm:


Yes spot he tricked you into believing that's what he thinks, but again, he did not actually say it.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 6:20am:


Is it mainstream normal Islam to want to destroy democracy and freedom and stone apostates to death?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 8^th, 2012 at 5:51am:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 6:36am:


No he did not Spot. He fooled you.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 6:36am:


He did not actually deny it Spot. It is called a strawman. It is a simple tactic to fool gullible people. He denied something of his own invention, not what he was actually accused of.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 6:36am:


Abu has never claimed that Islamic countries do not want Shariah law. He claims the opposite all the time. He just likes to reinforce your delusions wherever it suits him.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 6:46am:


Here spot even attempts to claim that Abu does not follow the Koran:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 11:12am:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 11:12am:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 11:12am:


Does that include Abu?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 12:49pm:

This is a load of bullshit. I dont speak for abu and you should have it out with him if you have problems with him. You are repeating yourself and still lying.

Quote:

Already saw that and responded to it ages ago.

SOB

Quote:


It certainly doesnt mean they are plotting to eat it - Do you think it does? Is that what kind of child you were?

SOB

What do you want freediver? What do you want to happen to "muslims" in australia? What do you want for australia concerning your religion? Be honest now.

SOB

Quote:


That doesnt really answer my question does it? you go after abu with such vitriol you must want something for him? Do you want him deported maybe? Perhaps you want islam banned but keep xtianity?

Quote:


Yeah you do seem to get confused a lot

SOB