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does Abu want Shariah law for Australia? (Read 87271 times)
freediver
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #240 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 8:02pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 5th, 2012 at 12:09pm:
I don't think anyone, least of all spot, is in any doubt that as a Muslim of course I'd love to see the entire world living according to Islam.


Abu, you posted this in your very first response in this thread. Do you really think Spot understands? Spot seems to think that you don't follow the Koran and that you don't want Shariah law for Australia.
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #241 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 8:20pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 8:02pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 5th, 2012 at 12:09pm:
I don't think anyone, least of all spot, is in any doubt that as a Muslim of course I'd love to see the entire world living according to Islam.


Abu, you posted this in your very first response in this thread. Do you really think Spot understands? Spot seems to think that you don't follow the Koran and that you don't want Shariah law for Australia.


The important thing fd is that Spot and I know both know what each other means. And we both know it's not what you mean, that is certain.

Spot says I  don't follow the Qur'an, meaning I don't implement it on society, this is a statement of fact.

I say I am not intending to force it onto Australian society, this is also a statement of fact.

Everyone (from the normal humanoids anyway) is happy... build a bridge and get over it.
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #242 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 8:27pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:11am:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 12:35am:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 19th, 2012 at 1:17pm:
I think what Abu means is that he would support Sharia law for Australia if we had a referendum
but he would not actually participate in thowing stones at women
who were sentenced to death by stoning.
( for apostasy or adultery etc )

Instead he would just nod his head & say - this is Allah's justice.
Allah Akbar.

Bump to Abu.

Bump bump to Abu


Bobby, yes of course I believe in and support and promote Shari'ah law.

No I don't believe in forcing it onto a society.

No I would not participate in public executions.

If someone is found guilty by rule of law and a court, and they are sentenced to the relevant punishment, then I would not just nod my head, I'd be happy justice was done.

Bobby, if a murderer gets life in prison, aren't you pleased? That doesn't mean you'd personally lock the guy in your own cellar and torture him or anything, but you've got no qualms with the state doing it right? You would be upset if they just gave him a slap on the wrist and let him go right?

Sure you don't think adultery is a crime, I do. Likewise I don't think marrying someone under 16 is a crime, yet you do...
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #243 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 8:31pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 1:25pm:
Abu, the question had nothing to do with whether you intended to try to force it on us. You know this and it is dishonest of you to put it any other way. We were asking you what you want and you have not answered. Most of your posts in this thread are excuses for why you should not give a straight answer.

...

So why all the excuses for not giving a straight answer Abu?

...

Abu the only reason this has turned into an issue is because you refused to answer a simple question and have been trying since then to misrepresent both the question and your responses.


fd, I've answered it all straight, dozens of times, I just got sick of you re-asking it, and I usually just ignore you now.

For the umpteenth time, yes I want shari'ah for the entire world, no I am not intending to force it onto any society. Can it be much clearer?

Honestly if you ask again, I'm going to just block your posts, as I'm sick of your juvenile stupidity.

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #244 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 8:50pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 1:30pm:
Your comment on promoting and making propaganda for sharia implies to me that you will sneak it in any way you can so that comment indicates to me you will use deception rather than force.


Whilst the term propaganda has been often associated with deceitful information campaigns, that is not the actual meaning of the word. It really just means to propagate information (and this is what the word is derived from), and was originally used purely for religious propagation.

This is the meaning I intend when using it:

Quote:
Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

...

Etymology

The term started to gain currency in 1622, when a new branch of the Catholic Church was created, called the Congregatio de Propaganda Fide (Congregation for Propagating the Faith), or informally simply Propaganda.[1][2] Its activity consisted in a group of cardinals pitching Catholicism in non Catholic countries.
(Wikipedia)

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 1:30pm:
Yes 2% of out population are muslims and many are already asking for sharia law even Ikebal Patel from the Australian federation of Islamic councils has asked for sharia law to be considered.


You're talking about 2 completely separate issues here.

1) Shari'ah law, a state system of governance, that covers all spheres of societal life. Implemented by a sovereign government.

2) Dispute resolution, burials, marriages etc. and mutual contracts drawn up according to some select principles of the above.

They are not even remotely alike, and suggesting it's the same thing is just plain stupid.

In the Islamic Caliphate, for over 1200 years, Christians and Jews lived according to Jewish and Christian "law" respectively. Yet at no time did the Caliphate implement either of those systems. It merely allowed them to resolve their disputes according to their principles. Likewise Britain has allowed Jews to do the same, having "Halakhic law" contracts amongst themselves. Yet at no time has the UK government ever implemented the ordinances of Halakhic law. Likewise Australian law allows Aboriginals to resolve some disputes according to their tradition laws. These councils and institutions are not an implementation of those laws though, and honestly, anyone who seriously believes they are is severely deluded and living in fantasy land.

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 1:30pm:
Did the hindu ever ask us to change any of our laws Abu?


Yes some Hindus have been asking to be able to change some laws in Western countries to accommadate their beliefs:

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/594440-hindu-condemns-uk-law-over-funerals

But if you just used your mind to actually reflect on what this all means, you'd know it does not mean implementing an alternate law system.

If you happened to live in India, and they forbade burials and only permitted open air cremations, which you or someone else might not agree with or want done with your own remains, then wouldn't you seek to assert your rights to have your remains disposed of the way you like?

These are the only kinds of issues any religious group is campaigning for in Western countries. The idea they're campaigning for the implementing of an alternate political system is just nonsense.

Apart from the odd fringe lunatic who Today tonight digs up out of the woodwork that is.
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #245 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:01pm
 
Big Dave wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 6:57pm:
Many muslim countries have many parts of sharia law in the governance of their countries Abu.


"parts" being the keyword here.

China, North Korea, Qadhafi's Libya and many other countries have had "parts" of democracy in their governance, does that mean they were "democracies"?
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #246 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:02pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 8:27pm:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:11am:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 12:35am:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 19th, 2012 at 1:17pm:
I think what Abu means is that he would support Sharia law for Australia if we had a referendum
but he would not actually participate in thowing stones at women
who were sentenced to death by stoning.
( for apostasy or adultery etc )

Instead he would just nod his head & say - this is Allah's justice.
Allah Akbar.

Bump to Abu.

Bump bump to Abu


Bobby, yes of course I believe in and support and promote Shari'ah law.

No I don't believe in forcing it onto a society.

No I would not participate in public executions.

If someone is found guilty by rule of law and a court, and they are sentenced to the relevant punishment, then I would not just nod my head, I'd be happy justice was done.

Bobby, if a murderer gets life in prison, aren't you pleased? That doesn't mean you'd personally lock the guy in your own cellar and torture him or anything, but you've got no qualms with the state doing it right? You would be upset if they just gave him a slap on the wrist and let him go right?

Sure you don't think adultery is a crime, I do. Likewise I don't think marrying someone under 16 is a crime, yet you do...



Thanks Abu,
So you would approve of women being stoned to death for adultery or apostasy.
I wouldn't like to live in a society like that.

Abu,
Can you understand why westerners are frightened of Muslims?
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #247 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:05pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:02pm:
Thanks Abu,
So you would approve of women being stoned to death for adultery or apostasy.
I wouldn't like to live in a society like that.

Abu,
Can you understand why westerners are frightened of Muslims?


Would you approve of women being locked in dungeons all their lives for killing? Would you approve of what they do in America where they fry women's brains out for committing robberies?
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #248 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:19pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:02pm:
Thanks Abu,
So you would approve of women being stoned to death for adultery or apostasy.
I wouldn't like to live in a society like that.

Abu,
Can you understand why westerners are frightened of Muslims?


Would you approve of women being locked in dungeons all their lives for killing? Would you approve of what they do in America where they fry women's brains out for committing robberies?



Take a chill pill Abu.
We are talking about adultery & apostasy.
These are religious crimes.
Western rough justice is another story - don't deflect.

Apostasy is just changing your religion -
is that worthy of being buried up to your waste & stoned to death?
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #249 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:55pm
 
Quote:
Spot says I  don't follow the Qur'an, meaning I don't implement it on society, this is a statement of fact.


No Abu. He means you don't follow the Koran, the same way you criticise Christians for not following the Bible. He has no concept of 'implementing it on society' because he does not link Shariah law and other political aspects with Islam. He tried to say you were like me in this regard. He thinks that you don't want Shariah law etc. This comment for example was directed at me:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am:
You are quoting his book. I quote your book. He doesnt follow his and you dont follow yours. They both say ppl should be killed for apostasy.


Why is it necessary to translate from Spot to Abu?

Quote:
For the umpteenth time, yes I want shari'ah for the entire world, no I am not intending to force it onto any society. Can it be much clearer?


It is perfectly clear to me Abu. It is Spot I am trying to convince. If you don't mind, I may ask you again to make it even clearer, as he is not showing any signs of understanding yet, but I'll give him another chance first. Your earlier refusal to discuss it is what caused his confusion, so I blame you for it.

Quote:
Bobby, yes of course I believe in and support and promote Shari'ah law.


Would that include lobbying for it?

Quote:
No I would not participate in public executions.


Who is supposed to throw all the stones? From my understanding it is pretty hard work to stone someone to death and they need a lot of people to participate. It is not like our legal system where there are paid roles.

Quote:
Likewise Australian law allows Aboriginals to resolve some disputes according to their tradition laws.


Can you elaborate please Abu?
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« Last Edit: Aug 20th, 2012 at 10:04pm by freediver »  

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #250 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 10:34pm
 
Freediver,
Quote:
Who is supposed to throw all the stones?
From my understanding it is pretty hard work to stone someone to death and they need a lot of people to participate.
It is not like our legal system where there are paid roles.


I suppose Abu's kids & maybe his relatives could help
build up the numbers  required for effective stoning to death for
changing ones religion.  Shocked

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #251 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 10:56pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:19pm:
Take a chill pill Abu.
We are talking about adultery & apostasy.
These are religious crimes.


That's your take on it. To me, they're just crimes, like any other. I do not see any religious significance to them, anymore than having a law against murder or theft is a religious crime, because they exist in the ten commandments.

Really, what is and isn't a religious crime? Isn't this just an artificial distinction you're attempting to make, to try and rationalise your belief in certain acts being crimes, yet not others?

Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:19pm:
Apostasy is just changing your religion -
is that worthy of being buried up to your waste & stoned to death?


Islamic texts do not state "changing your religion", they state "Leaving your religion and abandoning the community" (ie. treason).

I've been accused several times on this very forum of being a treasonous traitor, merely for having changed my religion. Clearly it's not just Muslims who consider this to be a form of treason.
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #252 - Aug 20th, 2012 at 11:32pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 10:56pm:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:19pm:
Take a chill pill Abu.
We are talking about adultery & apostasy.
These are religious crimes.


That's your take on it. To me, they're just crimes, like any other. I do not see any religious significance to them, anymore than having a law against murder or theft is a religious crime, because they exist in the ten commandments.

Really, what is and isn't a religious crime? Isn't this just an artificial distinction you're attempting to make, to try and rationalise your belief in certain acts being crimes, yet not others?

Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:19pm:
Apostasy is just changing your religion -
is that worthy of being buried up to your waste & stoned to death?


Islamic texts do not state "changing your religion", they state "Leaving your religion and abandoning the community" (ie. treason).

I've been accused several times on this very forum of being a treasonous traitor, merely for having changed my religion. Clearly it's not just Muslims who consider this to be a form of treason.



So - it's treason now - LOL - I suppose that makes it easier to throw the stones.
Abu - we are not children on this forum -
that's the kind of argument which would impress a 14 year old.
Grin
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #253 - Aug 21st, 2012 at 12:09am
 
Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 11:32pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 10:56pm:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:19pm:
Take a chill pill Abu.
We are talking about adultery & apostasy.
These are religious crimes.


That's your take on it. To me, they're just crimes, like any other. I do not see any religious significance to them, anymore than having a law against murder or theft is a religious crime, because they exist in the ten commandments.

Really, what is and isn't a religious crime? Isn't this just an artificial distinction you're attempting to make, to try and rationalise your belief in certain acts being crimes, yet not others?

Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:19pm:
Apostasy is just changing your religion -
is that worthy of being buried up to your waste & stoned to death?


Islamic texts do not state "changing your religion", they state "Leaving your religion and abandoning the community" (ie. treason).

I've been accused several times on this very forum of being a treasonous traitor, merely for having changed my religion. Clearly it's not just Muslims who consider this to be a form of treason.



So - it's treason now - LOL - I suppose that makes it easier to throw the stones.
Abu - we are not children on this forum -
that's the kind of argument which would impress a 14 year old.
Grin

]

Abu is a classic example of why society should ban all religious teachings to people under the age of 20.
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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #254 - Aug 21st, 2012 at 12:11am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:05pm:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 20th, 2012 at 9:02pm:
Thanks Abu,
So you would approve of women being stoned to death for adultery or apostasy.
I wouldn't like to live in a society like that.

Abu,
Can you understand why westerners are frightened of Muslims?


Would you approve of women being locked in dungeons all their lives for killing? Would you approve of what they do in America where they fry women's brains out for committing robberies?


Try this Abu...IF Sharia law was introduced into Australia would you be:

a) Happy
b) Sad
c) Angry
d) Uncaring
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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