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Does freedom have a meaning? (Read 10023 times)
abu_rashid
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #15 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 8:47pm
 
falah wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:54pm:
Let us remember that democratically elected governments:

*stole children from Aborigines in Australia
*stole land from native Americans in the USA
*persecuted Jews in Nazi Germany.
*steals land from Palestinians in Israel.


Or the way democratic countries like Australia were built on the backs of slaves "indentured workers".

Pacific Islander Labourers Act was a way of disposing of the remainder of the 60,000 or so slaves the Australian founders had kidnapped and worked into the ground to build this "great nation".
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Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #16 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 9:11pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 8:47pm:
falah wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:54pm:
Let us remember that democratically elected governments:

*stole children from Aborigines in Australia
*stole land from native Americans in the USA
*persecuted Jews in Nazi Germany.
*steals land from Palestinians in Israel.


Or the way democratic countries like Australia were built on the backs of slaves "indentured workers".

Pacific Islander Labourers Act was a way of disposing of the remainder of the 60,000 or so slaves the Australian founders had kidnapped and worked into the ground to build this "great nation".


How many slaves did the Muslims and Arabs have? Muslims and Arabs can have slaves but Anglos cannot?

In reality, it was different times and therefore a different morality to today.

Just another chance to put the boot in Australia huh.

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freediver
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #17 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 9:16pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 8:47pm:
falah wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:54pm:
Let us remember that democratically elected governments:

*stole children from Aborigines in Australia
*stole land from native Americans in the USA
*persecuted Jews in Nazi Germany.
*steals land from Palestinians in Israel.


Or the way democratic countries like Australia were built on the backs of slaves "indentured workers".

Pacific Islander Labourers Act was a way of disposing of the remainder of the 60,000 or so slaves the Australian founders had kidnapped and worked into the ground to build this "great nation".


Abu were these things you said about freedom wrong? Do you still think we are not free to criticise the government in a way that Islam would never allow?

freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:30pm:
Quote:
That's right, if a party stands on a platform of opposing the democratic ideology (of human legislation) and seeks to change this system to one of legislation by the laws of the almighty creator alone, then they would not be permitted to attain power in Australia, just as a party seeking to do the opposite would have no means to do so according to the Islamic system.


Do you mean that no-one would vote for them?

There is a very obvious mechanism Abu. If the majority of a population wants to destroy democracy and replace it with something else, then democracy is doomed, provided they can agree on what to replace it with. It is inevitable. Democracy is fragile.

Quote:
I did not state it was from Australia.


No, but I have been asking you for examples from Australia for the last half dozen or so posts. And you have been claiming that we do not have these freedoms. I am Australian, and you claim to be Australian, despite having no idea what Australia is like.

So, do you have any examples from Australia? Are we in fact free to criticise the government's foreign policy in a way that Islam would never permit? Or are you suggesting that we are not allowed to criticise the government, but that no-one has ever actually done so, hence the lack of convictions?

Are you confusing the public condemnation of Islam and it's barbaric ways, with some kind of illegality to believe or promote Islam?

Quote:
Why are you asking me to produce something, when I've asked you several posts ago now, to produce a case of Muslims who have been convicted here for actually being engaged in any act to commit harm to Australians.


Because the argument is about whether we are free to criticise the government, not whether we are free to blow up busses. BTW, I did give an example.

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abu_rashid
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #18 - Jul 4th, 2012 at 7:55pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 9:11pm:
In reality, it was different times and therefore a different morality to today.


It was only a century ago. Slavery was supposedly abolished. They were called "indentured workers".

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 9:11pm:
Just another chance to put the boot in Australia huh.


For such actions, more than a boot was deserved. That's despicable, and the same kind of mentality exists today amongst people like yourself.
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Soren
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #19 - Jul 4th, 2012 at 8:11pm
 


The pertinent point remains: freedom is a better ideal than sharia Islamism, as can be seen by comparing the best examples of when each is approximated in practice.

Places that come closest to the ideals of freedom and democracy are incomparably better in every respect than places that come closest to sharia-compliant Islamism.
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freediver
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #20 - Jul 4th, 2012 at 9:09pm
 
Odd how Abu has gone so silent on the topic of freedom. Perhaps he is still trying to make up his mind about whether he rejects freedom or merely 'offers a different interpretation' of it.
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Yadda
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #21 - Jul 4th, 2012 at 10:04pm
 
Does freedom have a meaning?



FD,

What meaning does 'freedom' have, in a society where law courts commonly refuse to remove those convicted of criminal acts, from society ?   [.....or, e.g. where people guilty of negligent manslaughter walk free, or can 'suffer' 2-3 years of goal time - for effectively taking a life.]

In such a society, does 'freedom' then mean that anyone/everyone is free to do whatever they like ?


Another Q...
If generally law abiding citizens are forced to live among criminals, .....If criminals are allowed to live among law abiding citizens, do the law abiding citizens also enjoy 'freedom' ?

FD,

If 'freedom' is [effectively] a licence from all lawful restraint, what is the quality of such 'freedom' ?




+++

I think what i am trying to say is;

Wouldn't a society have a higher quality of living [and internal safety], if standards of justice and law and 'righteousness' among its citizenry were emphasised [and taught!], rather than an emphasis on the rights of citizens to enjoy their 'freedom' [i.e. a 'licence' to effectively, act as they wish, without consequences] ?

Doesn't the word freedom [and its 'sibling' word, liberty], traditionally imply a positive quality ???

In a society like Australia, where has that quality', of enjoying freedom, gone to ?

And why has it 'gone' ?




IMO, if societal standards [of truth, and law, and justice] are low, then a consequence of that, will be that the quality of the [real] 'freedoms' of citizens within that society will also be low.

IMO, we [Western societies] are suffering from the loss of [moral] values and [moral] standards, a loss, which we have whole heartedly embraced as a supposed 'positive' !

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #22 - Jul 5th, 2012 at 10:54am
 
Yadda wrote on Jul 4th, 2012 at 10:04pm:

.....If criminals are allowed to live among law abiding citizens, do the law abiding citizens also enjoy 'freedom' ?

FD,

If 'freedom' is [effectively] a licence from all lawful restraint, what is the quality of such 'freedom' ?






WHAT MAINTAINS AND PROTECTS THE FREEDOMS OF A SOCIETY ???


A functioning justice system, in a society of men, will, of itself, protect the rights and freedoms of the citizens of that society.

But there can be no quality, or 'amenity' in the concept of 'freedom' [or of 'rights' !], in a society which [effectively] chooses to widely ignore [and chooses to tolerate] criminality [i.e. oppression and injustice] in its midst.

Any culture of man which chooses to 'tolerate' lawlessness [i.e. oppression and injustice], will destroy itself, in that choice.

Lawlessness, is an antonym of the word 'culture'.

Dictionary;
antonym = = a word opposite in meaning to another.






Quote:
"IMO, if we join what is precious with what is vile, we do not in that act, 'improve' that which is vile.

We merely corrupt that which is precious.....

.....e.g.
I have two buckets.
The first bucket is full of clean, fresh water.
The second bucket is full of sewage.

Q.
If i pour both buckets into a third container, what do i get?

A.
A third container, full of diluted sewage.

Conclusion?
While i could safely drink from the 1st bucket, i could *not* safely drink from the 2nd bucket, or the 3rd container.

So it is with evil, that is 'tolerated' by good people.

No matter how many times we repeat the phrase, "Tolerance is good.",
...our tolerance of what is clearly evil, is not a virtue.

It is a process, a progression.

Yadda explains 'Universality' i.e. 'humanism'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1299665041/55#55

and...
an eye-opening analysis of terrorism in Europe
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294223444/30#30






Quote:
"I come back to my argument about the wisdom, of assuming, in this PC world, that it is ok for 'sheep' and 'wolves' to share the same 'meadow'."

the right to choose what to wear
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1302598375/151#151
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1302598375/158#158i Quote:
"FD....

"I do not make assumptions about the actions of wolves, to justify the denial of the fundamental right of wolves to mingle with other creatures in the meadow. I would never seek to separate wolves from sheep, just because the suggestion has been made, that wolves might prey upon, and eat the sheep. Wolves should have the same rights as sheep do, to enjoy the meadow." "

ban all 'religious' clothing
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1303119265/103#103








Quote:
"I was merely pointing out that most men have always chosen to live in 'the society' of other men, being a notional 'controlled environment', living within a society governed by agreed laws.
Outside of such a controlled environment we have a lawless environment, where 'the law of the jungle' applies, where we expect the powerful and ruthless to prey upon the weak.
That is the difference between a society of savages, and a 'civilised' society, a society of laws.
Within a 'civilised' society, those who are powerful and ruthless are NOT permitted to prey upon the weak."

Enlightenment values seen as 'had right'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1325550886/107#107




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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bobbythefap1
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #23 - Jul 5th, 2012 at 11:07am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:36pm:
Puppet, the reason you think we live in a dictatorship is not because you aren't free to criticise the government (or would lose that freedom), but because you are incapable of convincing others of your views, whatever they are. Given that you won't even tell people what your views are, this is hardly surprising. Rather than acknowledge the possibility that you are wrong, you invent a grand conspiracy involving a dictatorship that doesn't actually oppress anyone and that let's their opposition openly compete against them, as if this is some kind of sneaky scheme to trick people into thinking they are free.

This is incorrect strawman.
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Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #24 - Jul 5th, 2012 at 11:24am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 4th, 2012 at 7:55pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 9:11pm:
In reality, it was different times and therefore a different morality to today.


It was only a century ago. Slavery was supposedly abolished. They were called "indentured workers".

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 9:11pm:
Just another chance to put the boot in Australia huh.


For such actions, more than a boot was deserved. That's despicable, and the same kind of mentality exists today amongst people like yourself.


Spare me your righteousness and hypocrisy.

Islam means submission, submission to Allah and all his laws. That's smacking slavery right there. Today in the West there is nothing remotely close to the slavery of old or the Islamic servitude found in the East (other than those who voluntarily submit to it).





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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #25 - Jul 5th, 2012 at 12:05pm
 
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falah
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #26 - Jul 5th, 2012 at 12:28pm
 
There are many verses in the Bible about taking slaves. Probably that is why Christians enslaved so many millions of people over the centuries and sent them to Brazil, Caribbean and USA.



The Quran, on the other hand, encourages the freeing of slaves.


The truth about Islam can be found here:

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/94840
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freediver
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #27 - Jul 5th, 2012 at 12:33pm
 
Yadda:

I Quote:
f 'freedom' is [effectively] a licence from all lawful restraint, what is the quality of such 'freedom' ?


No. As an ideal it limits lawful restraint to the natural limits of freedom. That is, your freedom and human rights end where another person's begins. Your freedom to swing your arms ends at another person's nose. This is where you references to law come in.

Quote:
IMO, we [Western societies] are suffering from the loss of [moral] values and [moral] standards, a loss, which we have whole heartedly embraced as a supposed 'positive' !


Who has embraced it? I haven't. You haven't.

Quote:
This is incorrect strawman.


Puppet, can you offer a better interpretation of your claims here? Your argument is a common theme among extremists - that the majority of people only disagree with you because they are all deluded, or the government is tricking them, or they are not free to think the way you do but do not realise they lack this freedom.

Quote:
The Quran, on the other hand, encourages the freeing of slaves.


And yet it took foreign interference from Christian Europe to finally abolish slavery in the middle east. The fact is that if you legalise slavery as Islam does, you make it inevitable, no matter how much you tell people it is nice to free the slaves.

Falah, do you think that the biblical story of the freeing of the Jews from slavery encourages or discourages slavery?
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #28 - Jul 5th, 2012 at 1:58pm
 
falah wrote on Jul 5th, 2012 at 12:28pm:
There are many verses in the Bible about taking slaves. Probably that is why Christians enslaved so many millions of people over the centuries and sent them to Brazil, Caribbean and USA.



The Quran, on the other hand, encourages the freeing of slaves.


The truth about Islam can be found here:

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/94840



From your same website falah-

Quote:
Islam allows a man to have sexual intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/10382/slave



When doing your dawaganda you might attract more men to Islam if you point out muslim men can have sex slaves along with 4 wives.

If Islam is against slavery why does an Islamic website say in 2012 that sex slaves are halal for muslim men?
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Yadda
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #29 - Jul 8th, 2012 at 2:07am
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 5th, 2012 at 1:58pm:
falah wrote on Jul 5th, 2012 at 12:28pm:
There are many verses in the Bible about taking slaves. Probably that is why Christians enslaved so many millions of people over the centuries and sent them to Brazil, Caribbean and USA.



The Quran, on the other hand, encourages the freeing of slaves.


The truth about Islam can be found here:

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/94840



From your same website falah-

Quote:
Islam allows a man to have sexual intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/10382/slave



When doing your dawaganda you might attract more men to Islam if you point out muslim men can have sex slaves along with 4 wives.


If Islam is against slavery why does an Islamic website say in 2012 that sex slaves are halal for muslim men?








Baronvonrort,

The fact that that particular ISLAMIC website projects two contradictory concepts [of how ISLAM regards human 'slavery'] is a very good example of the duplicitous nature of ISLAM [and of moslems, who choose to adopt ISLAM's tenets].

i.e.
Where it serves ISLAM's interests [e.g. recruitment], ISLAM will present itself as pro-slavery.

And where it serves ISLAM's interests ["ISLAM is virtuous."], ISLAM will present itself as anti-slavery.

Dictionary;
duplicity = =
1 deceitfulness.
2 the quality of being double.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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