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Does freedom have a meaning? (Read 5025 times)
freediver
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Does freedom have a meaning?
Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:10pm
 
From the thread "Is This What We Can Look Forward To? "


abu_rashid wrote on Jun 24th, 2012 at 3:02pm:
Muslims want to choose their own leaders, and have political freedom



abu_rashid wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 8:21pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 12:44pm:
Quote:
To me Islam is as Democracy is to you. You believe Democracy must be the foundation of the political system, and that parties which adopt the Democratic ideology can then compete on that platform.


Abu, you take it far further than that by insisting that Islam is democracy and is freedom. I don't try to tell you that our system of government is Shariah law and I consider it blatantly dishonest for you to attempt to argue the corollary.


What nonsense. I would never degrade the good name of Islam by associating it with these disastrous ideals of freedom and democracy.



abu_rashid wrote on Jun 29th, 2012 at 11:24pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2012 at 1:05pm:
Quote:
fd, I get that you're not the brightest spark, but come on. The word "freedom" by itself, without context is pretty meaningless. This argument reminds me of two people arguing over growing pumpkins. Because my pumpkin is bigger, therefore you never even grew a pumpkin


It has enough meaning. Can you give a context in which what you describe can justifiably be called political freedom? In what context are you "free" to criticise the government and pursue political change, if you can only promote Sunni Islam and only criticise the government from a basis of Sunni Islam? Also, how does this context differ from the context above where you openly rejected freedom and democracy in the name of Islam?


It's not different at all to the system you believe in, where only parties who espouse the democratic ideology are valid.

The sad thing is, you are in denial about it. At least I'm honest enough to admit the political ideology I  believe in admits no other ideology. You on the other hand delude yourself into thinking you have some kind of choice.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SqhhJb_P3Kk/Sr00OjgrX2I/AAAAAAAAJTQ/HZLcSLNZU6M/s400/l...

freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2012 at 1:05pm:
Or, if you want to do analogies, can you tell me what is wrong with this analogy?

I have a red car. Abu has a blue one:

FD: Look at my red car.

Abu: I also have a red car.

FD: Looks blue to me. This is what a red car looks like.

Abu: FOOL! You are working on the assumption that your car is 100% red. But your tyres are black. Therefor we both have red cars. We only differ in the extent to which our cars are red.

FD: Would you like a red car Abu?

Abu: Hell no! I hate red cars. I would only ever get a blue one.

FD: So that's why your car is blue.

Abu: I already explained that it is red. My concept of red merely differs from yours.

FD: Can you explain how your concept differs to the point that your blue car is red?

Abu: The term "red" is meaningless without context. Therefor I can use it to describe my car without misleading anyone.


The only thing I see here is the first sign of madness.

freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2012 at 1:05pm:
Quote:
Several Muslims have not only been arrested but convicted and given lengthy gaol terms just for such things.


In Australia? Merely for criticising the government's foreign policy? Can you give examples?


Pretty much every single Muslim charged with "terrorism" offences has merely been a critic of the government and its policies. They have not actually been convicted of committing any act whatsoever, they merely thought or expressed ideas. Yet you think you live in a system that has unlimited political freedom. You're a dreamer.

freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2012 at 1:05pm:
Quote:
And what great crime exactly did they commit? How many people did they harm? Or perhaps they thought about such a thing right??? But Australia doesn't prosecute for thought crimes, no no no. fd, do you not see the linkage between this point and the previous one?


They did not merely think about committing terrorism. They actually started preparing an attack. None of this has anything to do with what you are allowed to say about the government.


Which of them actually prepared an attack? Some of them were convicted merely for asking what the Islamic ruling is on committing such acts. This was twisted into "seeking a fatwa to carry out the act", and then bang, half their life wasted in prison.... but never mind, we live in a country of unlimited political freedom, back to your little dreamworld fd. Nevermind the reality, keep ignoring it.



freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 9:10am:
Quote:
It's not different at all to the system you believe in, where only parties who espouse the democratic ideology are valid.


Are you suggesting that parties are not allowed to run for office unless they 'espouse the democratic ideology'?

Quote:
Pretty much every single Muslim charged with "terrorism" offences has merely been a critic of the government and its policies. They have not actually been convicted of committing any act whatsoever, they merely thought or expressed ideas.


Quote:
Some of them were convicted merely for asking what the Islamic ruling is on committing such acts.


Can you give an example of one from Australia? Do you realise that the example you gave is not from Australia and did not involve a conviction?



abu_rashid wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 12:07pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 9:10am:
Quote:
It's not different at all to the system you believe in, where only parties who espouse the democratic ideology are valid.


Are you suggesting that parties are not allowed to run for office unless they 'espouse the democratic ideology'?


That's right, if a party stands on a platform of opposing the democratic ideology (of human legislation) and seeks to change this system to one of legislation by the laws of the almighty creator alone, then they would not be permitted to attain power in Australia, just as a party seeking to do the opposite would have no means to do so according to the Islamic system.

freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 9:10am:
Quote:
Pretty much every single Muslim charged with "terrorism" offences has merely been a critic of the government and its policies. They have not actually been convicted of committing any act whatsoever, they merely thought or expressed ideas.


Quote:
Some of them were convicted merely for asking what the Islamic ruling is on committing such acts.


Can you give an example of one from Australia? Do you realise that the example you gave is not from Australia and did not involve a conviction?


I did not state it was from Australia. Learn to read more carefully. Why are you asking me to produce something, when I've asked you several posts ago now, to produce a case of Muslims who have been convicted here for actually being engaged in any act to commit harm to Australians. Clearly you cannot, hence your attempt to turn the questions around, without answering them (modus operandi for you isn't it?)



freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:30pm:
Quote:
That's right, if a party stands on a platform of opposing the democratic ideology (of human legislation) and seeks to change this system to one of legislation by the laws of the almighty creator alone, then they would not be permitted to attain power in Australia, just as a party seeking to do the opposite would have no means to do so according to the Islamic system.


Do you mean that no-one would vote for them?

There is a very obvious mechanism Abu. If the majority of a population wants to destroy democracy and replace it with something else, then democracy is doomed, provided they can agree on what to replace it with. It is inevitable. Democracy is fragile.

Quote:
I did not state it was from Australia.


No, but I have been asking you for examples from Australia for the last half dozen or so posts. And you have been claiming that we do not have these freedoms. I am Australian, and you claim to be Australian, despite having no idea what Australia is like.

So, do you have any examples from Australia? Are we in fact free to criticise the government's foreign policy in a way that Islam would never permit? Or are you suggesting that we are not allowed to criticise the government, but that no-one has ever actually done so, hence the lack of convictions?

Are you confusing the public condemnation of Islam and it's barbaric ways, with some kind of illegality to believe or promote Islam?

Quote:
Why are you asking me to produce something, when I've asked you several posts ago now, to produce a case of Muslims who have been convicted here for actually being engaged in any act to commit harm to Australians.


Because the argument is about whether we are free to criticise the government, not whether we are free to blow up busses. BTW, I did give an example.

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« Last Edit: Jul 1st, 2012 at 5:54pm by freediver »  

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bobbythefap1
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Re: Does freedom mean have a meaning?
Reply #1 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:12pm
 
I think this sums up western freedom.
...
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Re: Does freedom mean have a meaning?
Reply #2 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:41pm
 
bobbythefap1 wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:12pm:



A trip to North Korea will make it clear to you what freedom in the West is.
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Re: Does freedom mean have a meaning?
Reply #3 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:42pm
 
Culture Warrior wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:41pm:
bobbythefap1 wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:12pm:



A trip to North Korea will make it clear to you what freedom in the West is.

Different method same product.
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Re: Does freedom mean have a meaning?
Reply #4 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 3:14pm
 
North Korea: media controlled by one megalomaniac

Australia: media controlled by three billionaire megalomaniancs

Logic? 3 megalomanics is better than 1
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #5 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 5:56pm
 
Puppet and Falah, do you believe that we are free to criticise the government in Australia? Would you prefer a system like Islam where you can get the death penalty for saying the wrong thing? Can either of you think of a context in which Islam can legitimately be described as political freedom? Am I breaking Australian law, as Abu suggests, by allowing you to promote Islam?

Or do you all equate being ignored by the majority and not getting your way with not being free to have an opinion?
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« Last Edit: Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:02pm by freediver »  

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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #6 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 5:56pm:
Puppet and Falah, do you believe that we are free to criticise the government in Australia? Would you prefer a system like Islam where you can get the death penalty for saying the wrong thing? Can either of you think of a context in which Islam can legitimately be described as political freedom? Am I breaking Australian law, as Abu suggests, by allowing you to promote Islam?

Or do you all equate being ignored by the majority and not getting your way with not being free to have an opinion?

Why punish people for criticising the government when it has no real effect anyway? As I have stated before we live in a smart and calculated dictatorship. It doesn't take a genius to work out that you don't need to do that stuff to have an effective dictatorship, in fact it makes it more effective in the long run.

But in saying that we do see a lot of examples of people being punished for speaking bad against the government.
The occupy protesters got the heads cracked in for example.

Most people dont even critcise the real problems anyway, its no skin of the governments shoulder if people are bickering about the stuff most people do.

If every started to critisice the real problems, much like occupy started to do then we would see more authoritarianism.

We have been on a downward spiral.
Freedoms are being removed ever so slowly, people are becoming ever more complacent and the chances of successfully challenging the real problems in our world are almost 0% now.

Where exactly do you get the idea that your views are of the majority? It would seem it is the exact opposite now a days.
Is there a poll or something?


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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #7 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:20pm
 
Quote:
The occupy protesters got the heads cracked in for example.


In Australia?

Quote:
If every started to critisice the real problems, much like occupy started to do then we would see more authoritarianism.


So the problem is not that we aren't free to say what we think, the problem is that people don't agree with you about what the problem is? Can you suggest what people might have to say in order to get the government to crack down on people speaking their mind?

Quote:
Freedoms are being removed ever so slowly


So what do you mean by freedom? Do you mean the non-freedom that Abu promotes? Would you prefer a system like Islam where you can get the death penalty for saying the wrong thing? Or are you one of those people who claim to support freedom but cannot bring yourself to criticise those who would take it away, unless it suits your political agenda?

Quote:
Where exactly do you get the idea that your views are of the majority?


What views in particular are you talking about? I am definitely in the majority here in supporting freedom and democracy. I would probably be in the majority in every country in the world.
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #8 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:27pm
 
Quote:
In Australia?
Yes, in all western nations they were held.
Quote:
So the problem is not that we aren't free to say what we think, the problem is that people don't agree with you about what the problem is? Can you suggest what people might have to say in order to get the government to crack down on people speaking their mind?
How you equated what I said to that I will never know.
Quote:
So what do you mean by freedom? Do you mean the non-freedom that Abu promotes? Would you prefer a system like Islam where you can get the death penalty for saying the wrong thing? Or are you one of those people who claim to support freedom but cannot bring yourself to criticise those who would take it away, unless it suits your political agenda?
Freedom as in rights generally.
I don't know what Abu promotes.
As opposed to going to jail and being ass raped?

I do criticise what happens in other places, Islam being one example.
You are the only one here who cannot bring yourself to criticise those who would take it away, even when they steal it from right in front of you. You are the one who is blind to issues that impair you political agendas.

Quote:
What views in particular are you talking about? I am definitely in the majority here in supporting freedom and democracy. I would probably be in the majority in every country in the world.

You said..
Quote:
Or do you all equate being ignored by the majority and not getting your way with not being free to have an opinion?

So that would mean I am in the majority as well if its about wanting freedom and democracy.
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #9 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:36pm
 
Puppet, the reason you think we live in a dictatorship is not because you aren't free to criticise the government (or would lose that freedom), but because you are incapable of convincing others of your views, whatever they are. Given that you won't even tell people what your views are, this is hardly surprising. Rather than acknowledge the possibility that you are wrong, you invent a grand conspiracy involving a dictatorship that doesn't actually oppress anyone and that let's their opposition openly compete against them, as if this is some kind of sneaky scheme to trick people into thinking they are free.
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #10 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:42pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 5:56pm:
Puppet and Falah, do you believe that we are free to criticise the government in Australia?


Can you explain to us the sedition law introduced by john Howard?

Western governments have shifty ways of dealing with people like Julian Assange, David Hicks, Mamdouh Habib, Bilal Khazal.

On 25 September 2009 the Supreme Court of New South Wales sentenced Bilal Khazal to 14 years in prison, with a non-parole period of 9 years for postin an article on the internet. He spent three years in jail before his conviction was overturned. He is hated by Western governments for producing the Nidaul Islam magazine cited by the FBI as the most radical in the Western world in the late 90's.


In 1996, Alfred Langer was jailed for attacking Australia's two-party duocracy:


Quote:
The story of Albert Langer

In 1996, Albert Langer was jailed for telling people how to vote. Langer was a member of the Neither! campaign, which argued that voters shouldn't have to direct their preferences to parties they didn't agree with. They said that voters could legally vote 1 for a party of their choice, and then put a 2 in each of the other boxes, thereby stopping their preferences from flowing on to the major parties when they didn't want them to. This was particularly aimed at supporters of minor parties, who might not want to see their votes ultimately go to Labor or the Coalition, as it usually does for all votes in the House of Representatives.

The Australian Electoral Commission wasn't very happy with this campaign. While it argued that Langer had the right to vote this way, he should not be encouraging others to do so. The Victorian Supreme Court ultimately agreed and then ordered that Langer be jailed for contempt of court when he continued his campaign after being ordered to stop. When Langer was sent to prison Amnesty International declared him Australia's first prisoner of conscience for more than twenty years, and called for his release.

In the end, Albert Langer only served three weeks of a ten week term because the Federal Court ruled the Victorian Supreme Court's sentence had been too severe.

AEC figures show that around 46 000 votes were exhausted during the 1996 House of Representatives election, an increase of over 500 percent on the number of exhausted votes in the 1993 election. Albert Langer thanked the AEC for the publicity his advocated method of voting received following the action taken against him.

The Electoral Act has since been amended. Section 240 was changed to say that voters need to number the boxes in order and without repeating any numbers.

Interestingly though, the section which outlawed Langer from encouraging people to vote this way has also been repealed. Instead the law now says it is only an offence to print or publish material which may deceive or mislead a voter.

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/events/election_04/albertlanger.htm



The Australian Government regularly bans entry to foreign speakers critical of the current system of government.
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #11 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:54pm
 
Democracy is just another method of oppression.

Democracy often equals oppression of minorities by the majority.

Recent examples:

*Burka ban in Netherlands, Belgium, Italy and France.
*Minaret ban in Switzerland.
*Circumcision ban in Germany
*Ban on polygamy in most Western countries.
*Bans on kosher and halal meat slaughter in Netherlands
*bans on ethnic minorities from joining elite military service in Singapore.
*people forced to take out car and businesss insurance in Australia.




There are some people on this forum that would argue that the majority has oppressed them in other ways:

*ban in Europe and Israel on questioning holocaust dogma



Let us remember that democratically elected governments:

*stole children from Aborigines in Australia
*stole land from native Americans in the USA
*persecuted Jews in Nazi Germany.
*steals land from Palestinians in Israel.



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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #12 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:58pm
 
Quote:
Can you explain to us the sedition law introduced by john Howard?


No. Can you?

Quote:
On 25 September 2009 the Supreme Court of New South Wales sentenced Bilal Khazal to 14 years in prison, with a non-parole period of 9 years for postin an article on the internet. He spent three years in jail before his conviction was overturned. He is hated by Western governments for producing the Nidaul Islam magazine cited by the FBI as the most radical in the Western world in the late 90's.


So the best example you can give is of someone who had their conviction overturned?

Quote:
In 1996, Alfred Langer was jailed for attacking Australia's two-party duocracy:


Another great example - the supreme court let him out after three weeks, he thanked the AEC for the publicity, and has succeeded in having many laws changed in his favour.

If that is the best you can come up with, it sounds more like the exception that proves the rule.

Falah, do you think that our system is dominated by two parties because people freely choose those two parties, or because we aren't free to choose the other parties?

Quote:
The Australian Government regularly bans entry to foreign speakers critical of the current system of government.


So Australians are not free because our freedoms are not extended to everyone in the world? Do you equate freedom with the absence of border control and no standards for who is allowed to enter the country?

Quote:
Democracy often equals oppression of minorities by the majority.


I suppose that is a good sign if you can at least tell the difference between democracy and freedom.
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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #13 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 7:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:58pm:
Quote:
Can you explain to us the sedition law introduced by john Howard?


No. Can you?


Quote:
Schedule 7 of the Anti-Terrorism Bill (No. 2) 2005,[5] passed by the Upper House on 6 December 2005, repealed Sections 24A to 24E of the Crimes Act (1914) and reintroduced them, along with several new classes of offence, in a Division 80—Treason and sedition. Crimes in this division now attract a maximum penalty of seven years' imprisonment.
Seditious Intention

The definition of "seditious intention" originally in Section 24A has become (as amended):

An intention to effect any of the following purposes:

    (a) to bring the Sovereign into hatred or contempt;

    (b) to urge disaffection against the following:

        (i) the Constitution;

        (ii) the Government of the Commonwealth;

        (iii) either House of the Parliament;


    (c) to urge another person to attempt, otherwise than by lawful means, to procure a change to any matter established by law in the Commonwealth;

    (d) to promote feelings of ill-will or hostility between different groups so as to threaten the peace, order and good government of the Commonwealth.

These new crimes are all punishable by Imprisonment for 7 years.



freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:58pm:
Quote:
On 25 September 2009 the Supreme Court of New South Wales sentenced Bilal Khazal to 14 years in prison, with a non-parole period of 9 years for postin an article on the internet. He spent three years in jail before his conviction was overturned. He is hated by Western governments for producing the Nidaul Islam magazine cited by the FBI as the most radical in the Western world in the late 90's.


So the best example you can give is of someone who had their conviction overturned?


As I said, Western governments have ways of persecuting people. He spent three years in prison. That is a long tiome for an innocent man to spend in jail.

Tony Abbott also made sure that Pauline Hanson was jailed.

Quote:
The Prime Minister, John Howard, was aware of a $100,000 clandestine trust fund set up by the Workplace Relations Minister, Tony Abbott, to bankroll legal action against Pauline Hanson and One Nation.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/26/1061663793191.html


Quote:
Bronwyn Bishop MHR said Hanson was a political prisoner, comparing her conviction with Robert Mugabe's treatment of Zimbabwean opponents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Hanson#Fraud_conviction_and_acquittal


Quote:
In 1996, Alfred Langer was jailed for attacking Australia's two-party duocracy:



freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:58pm:
Falah, do you think that our system is dominated by two parties because people freely choose those two parties, or because we aren't free to choose the other parties?


Australians are brainwashed by media moguls to vote for the duocracy. The duocracy is also sel-perpetuated with corrupt funding:

Quote:
Parties for Democracy Program


...Funding of up to $1 million is provided annually under the programme to each of the Australian Labor Party and to the Liberal Party of Australia...

http://www.anao.gov.au/Publications/Audit-Reports/2008-2009/The-Administration-o...




Quote:
Election funding


A candidate or Senate group is eligible for election funding if they obtain at least 4% of the first preference vote in the division or the state or territory they contested.
The amount to be paid is calculated by multiplying the number of votes obtained by the current election funding rate. The funding rate for the 2010 federal election was 231.191 cents per House of Representatives and Senate vote.
This rate is indexed every six months to increases in the Consumer Price Index...

http://www.aec.gov.au/parties_and_representatives/public_funding/index.htm


Quote:
Full list of federal MPs entitlements


..COMMUNICATIONS:

Printing allowance of $100,000 a year for Reps, $16,667 a year for senators for personalised stationery, newsletters, certificates, fridge magnets, postal vote applications and voting information.

Communications allowance to cover postage and costs of creating and maintaining a web site. Worth $27,500 a year for senators and about $40,000 a year for lower house members (50 cents for every enrolled voter in electorate).


Also given $1800 a year worth of stamps for their office at Parliament House.

Four telephones in the office, fax and answering machine.

Taxpayer-funded phone line, fax and answering machine at home.

Two mobile phones (one can be a Blackberry). Hands-free car kit on request for their private car.

Telephone services charge card

Phone numbers called by MPs are not listed on the bills paid by taxpayers.

A Post Office box at the nearest Post Office.

1300 toll free telephone number if their electorate covers more than one STD area.

TRAVEL IN AUSTRALIA:

Flights: No limit on number of business-class commercial flights. MPs who use charter flights when there is a commercial flight available must pay the difference.

Car with driver: COMCAR at their service when they are in Canberra, interstate on official business or to travel to and from the airport in their home city.

Private-plated vehicle: Every MP given a car from a list (typically a Holden, Ford or Toyota). MPs pay $711 a year and taxpayers pay all costs, including petrol, registration and servicing. Can be used for private and family reasons and can be driven by a staff member or family member.

MPs can choose to not have a car and get an allowance of $19,500 a year to pay for public transport and taxis.

Charter flights: Depending on the size of their electorate, MPs can spend between $9450 and $79,475 a year on charter flights or cars. Can be used by the MP, spouse or staff member...

http://www.smh.com.au/national/full-list-of-federal-mps-entitlements-20090521-bh...

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« Last Edit: Jul 1st, 2012 at 8:18pm by falah »  

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Re: Does freedom have a meaning?
Reply #14 - Jul 1st, 2012 at 8:10pm
 
Quote:
As I said, Western governments have ways of persecuting people. He spent three years in prison.


So you think the government wrongly convicts people then gets their conviction overturned as a deliberate ploy to persecute them? Wouldn't this effectively give the green light for people to do exactly what the government is trying to stop, at the same time as giving it lots of publicity? You are not making much sense Falah.

Quote:
Australians are brainwashed by media moguls to vote for the duocracy. The duocracy is also sel-perpetuated with corrupt funding:


What percentage do you think vote for the 'duocracy'? It looks to me more more like a fairly level playing field with many competing parties and ideologies, whose following reasonably reflects their popularity. Like puppet, you appear to be inventing a grand conspiracy to explain why everyone still disagrees with you (despite you kindly informing them they are brainwashed) and to avoid facing the possibility you are wrong.

Quote:
The duocracy is also sel-perpetuated with corrupt funding:


Quote:
Funding of up to $1 million is provided annually under the programme to each of the Australian Labor Party and to the Liberal Party of Australia...


Falah, do you realise that that money is to be spent on foreign projects?

Do you think it is corrupt for Senators and MPs to get paid and have their expenses covered in a transparent manner?

Aren't you merely demonstrating your freedom to criticise the government, no matter how absurd your criticism - something Abu thinks should not be allowed under Islam and that he insists is also not allowed in Australia?
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