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Is This What We Can Look Forward To? (Read 3599 times)
abu_rashid
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #30 - Jun 26th, 2012 at 11:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2012 at 10:27pm:
So when you talk about political freedom, you mean that Sunni Islam should be imposed on people and they should not be allowed to have any other political ideologies?


To me Islam is as Democracy is to you. You believe Democracy must be the foundation of the political system, and that parties which adopt the Democratic ideology can then compete on that platform. If a party does not accept the Democratic platform, then in your belief they shouldn't be allowed to participate in the political arena, correct? Likewise for us, any party not adopting the Islamic platform, is not welcome to compete.

freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2012 at 10:27pm:
Quote:
Freedom always has limits, this is a fact. We have different ideas on what the ideal limits should be, that's all.


Falah, I think we disagree on what freedom means. I can't make any sense of how you equate what you described with political freedom. It is the exact opposite.


Firstly, figure out who you're speaking to. If you can't get this basic fact straight, then obviously you're not fit for this discussion.

Your viewpoint here stems from your misconception that you believe in 100% unfettered freedom, you do not, and if you actually do, then you're a loon. As I  said, we merely have a difference of opinion on what the "cut off" point is at which we consider freedom is crossing over into self-destructiveness.

freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2012 at 10:27pm:
Quote:
Can I criticise the government and its ideology "freely" without limit in Australia?


So long as you don't blow up a bus, sure. Are you referring to any kind of limits in particular?


Australia's treason & sedition laws suggest otherwise.
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #31 - Jun 27th, 2012 at 12:44pm
 
Quote:
To me Islam is as Democracy is to you. You believe Democracy must be the foundation of the political system, and that parties which adopt the Democratic ideology can then compete on that platform.


Abu, you take it far further than that by insisting that Islam is democracy and is freedom. I don't try to tell you that our system of government is Shariah law and I consider it blatantly dishonest for you to attempt to argue the corollary.

Quote:
If a party does not accept the Democratic platform, then in your belief they shouldn't be allowed to participate in the political arena, correct?


No. Democracy and freedom are an inherently fragile system. Hence the saying that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. We wouldn't have political freedom and democracy if we forbade certain parties from running for office. The only time I have gone so far as to suggest legal intervention in the problem of Islam is to suggest we deny immigration to people who reject freedom and democracy. This should apply to all who do so, whether they are Nazis, Muslims or some other group.

Quote:
Likewise for us, any party not adopting the Islamic platform, is not welcome to compete.


There is nothing at all alike in your alternative.

Quote:
Your viewpoint here stems from your misconception that you believe in 100% unfettered freedom


No Abu. I have pointed out dozens of times to you that this is simply incorrect. I have no idea how to explain it to you in any simpler terms. You are the one making this claim, over and over again, in spite of the facts. Not me.

Quote:
Australia's treason & sedition laws suggest otherwise.


Can you give an example of how these laws might prevent you from criticising the government, other than say, by blowing up a bus?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #33 - Jun 27th, 2012 at 8:21pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 12:44pm:
Quote:
To me Islam is as Democracy is to you. You believe Democracy must be the foundation of the political system, and that parties which adopt the Democratic ideology can then compete on that platform.


Abu, you take it far further than that by insisting that Islam is democracy and is freedom. I don't try to tell you that our system of government is Shariah law and I consider it blatantly dishonest for you to attempt to argue the corollary.


What nonsense. I would never degrade the good name of Islam by associating it with these disastrous ideals of freedom and democracy.

freediver wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 12:44pm:
Quote:
Australia's treason & sedition laws suggest otherwise.


Can you give an example of how these laws might prevent you from criticising the government, other than say, by blowing up a bus?


Criticising the government's inhumane terrorist activities in Afghanistan & Iraq comes to mind.
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #34 - Jun 27th, 2012 at 8:25pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 5:37pm:
[url=http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/immigration/inquiry-exposes-fear-of-muslims/story-fn9hm1gu-1226409557512]Inquiry exposes fear of Muslims

    by: PATRICIA KARVELAS
    From: The Australian
    June 27, 2012 12:00AM


AUSTRALIANS are comfortable with multiculturalism and racial diversity, but an overwhelming number of people have expressed concerns that Muslims are not integrating and are coming to Australia to impose their values on the nation.

A far-reaching bipartisan federal parliamentary inquiry into the nation's acceptance of culturally diverse communities, due to report in August, will conclude that the largest issue facing the nation is the acceptance of Muslims, who many Australians fear have an agenda not at one with the country's values.


The problem with Islam seems to be purely that it is too attractive to people. People like you soren don't mind Buddhists, Vietnamese, Jains, Chinese, Hindus etc. because there's nothing overly attractive about their way of life. Australians are not en masse going to adopt their way of life, hence you are "safe" from them. But with Islam, you know full well it's attractive to people, and Australians are going to embrace and adopt it, and this scares you. You want only peoples who are going to assimilate into your culture, not you end up assimilating to theirs.

It's a simple fact Islam could never impose itself on Australians, this claim is a just a smoke screen, because it sounds pretty pathetic to admit you fear people embracing it voluntarily.
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #35 - Jun 27th, 2012 at 9:37pm
 
Quote:
What nonsense. I would never degrade the good name of Islam by associating it with these disastrous ideals of freedom and democracy


So what do you mean when you advocate political freedom? Why did you use the word freedom? To mislead?

Quote:
Criticising the government's inhumane terrorist activities in Afghanistan & Iraq comes to mind.


Is this illegal?

Quote:
It's a simple fact Islam could never impose itself on Australians


That doesn't stop Islamic extremists from trying, and killing plenty of people along the way.
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« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2012 at 9:48pm by freediver »  

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Soren
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #36 - Jun 27th, 2012 at 10:14pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 8:25pm:
Soren wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 5:37pm:
[url=http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/immigration/inquiry-exposes-fear-of-muslims/story-fn9hm1gu-1226409557512]Inquiry exposes fear of Muslims

    by: PATRICIA KARVELAS
    From: The Australian
    June 27, 2012 12:00AM


AUSTRALIANS are comfortable with multiculturalism and racial diversity, but an overwhelming number of people have expressed concerns that Muslims are not integrating and are coming to Australia to impose their values on the nation.

A far-reaching bipartisan federal parliamentary inquiry into the nation's acceptance of culturally diverse communities, due to report in August, will conclude that the largest issue facing the nation is the acceptance of Muslims, who many Australians fear have an agenda not at one with the country's values.


The problem with Islam seems to be purely that it is too attractive to people. People like you soren don't mind Buddhists, Vietnamese, Jains, Chinese, Hindus etc. because there's nothing overly attractive about their way of life. Australians are not en masse going to adopt their way of life, hence you are "safe" from them. But with Islam, you know full well it's attractive to people, and Australians are going to embrace and adopt it, and this scares you. You want only peoples who are going to assimilate into your culture, not you end up assimilating to theirs.

It's a simple fact Islam could never impose itself on Australians, this claim is a just a smoke screen, because it sounds pretty pathetic to admit you fear people embracing it voluntarily.



Correct except for the bit about Islam being attractive to people. Out of that two line extract, one and a half lines escaped your attention, because you are a Muslim. Here it is again: "an overwhelming number of people have expressed concerns that Muslims are not integrating and are coming to Australia to impose their values on the nation."

Nothing about attractiveness of Islam. Everything about an overwhelming number believing that you are the enemies of their society and culture.  There is no conscious, concerted effort by the Buddhists or all the rest of them, to turn this place into some mythical Buddhist land. You jihadi Muslims, on the other hand, are devoting your lives and your children's lives through their  indoctrination, to the realisation of the global Islamic caliphate, with all its dreadful barbarity and idiotic literalness.

Muslims like you, jihadis of polemics and argument, as well the jihadis of violence and murder, oppose the very foundations of the social and legal system in this country and the West generally. You oppose the very core of its culture and heritage, customs, freedoms, the lot. You are the enemy of everything that its citizens swear to.  People know this. You know this.  There is no attraction, only mutual repulsion.


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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #37 - Jun 28th, 2012 at 8:00pm
 
I challenge you Abu to find a singe non-Muslim Australian who finds the idea attractive of destroying our democracy and replacing it with Islamic law, or stoning people to death for rejecting Islam, or making women cover everything but their face and hands in 40 degree heat, or permitting us to take slaves home from war to have sex with.

If Islam is so attractive, why do you go to such absurd lengths to avoid discussing them or clarifying misunderstandings?
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #38 - Jun 28th, 2012 at 9:42pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 9:37pm:
Quote:
What nonsense. I would never degrade the good name of Islam by associating it with these disastrous ideals of freedom and democracy


So what do you mean when you advocate political freedom? Why did you use the word freedom? To mislead?


Have you not read a single post I've made in response to you here? My concept of political freedom differs from yours. Whilst yours revolves around the capacity to carry out all sorts of devious and despicable "because you can", mine revolves around the capacity of the nation to determine their own course, rather than have it dictated to them from the "powers that be".

freediver wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 9:37pm:
Quote:
Criticising the government's inhumane terrorist activities in Afghanistan & Iraq comes to mind.


Is this illegal?


Apparently. If one's opposition to the war could be in any way interpreted as being "beneficial" to the "enemy" then it would be classed as sedition.

freediver wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 9:37pm:
Quote:
It's a simple fact Islam could never impose itself on Australians


That doesn't stop Islamic extremists from trying, and killing plenty of people along the way.


Can you provide an example of this fantasy of yours?
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #39 - Jun 28th, 2012 at 9:55pm
 
You know Abu my USA friend here at university - he too has done his national service in IDF same time as me - he make a good comment

"one day one day the Arabs and Muslims will learn that you do not f**k with the Jews!"
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #40 - Jun 28th, 2012 at 10:16pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 10:14pm:
Correct except for the bit about Islam being attractive to people...

Muslims like you...


Muslims like me? You mean average Aussies who embraced Islam and proved the point you're arguing hopelessly against?

I find it most interesting that out of all the Muslims who have ever posted on this forum, almost every single one has been an Aussie who embraced Islam.

Quite clearly some of us *do* find it attractive. why not just admit that scares you? If Muslims were as hostile as you claim, I honestly don't think you'd fear Islam as much, because it'd be easy to make a case against it... but since it is winning hearts and minds, it's extremely dangerous isn't it?
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #41 - Jun 28th, 2012 at 10:16pm
 
Quote:
Have you not read a single post I've made in response to you here? My concept of political freedom differs from yours.


I get that it is different. I get that you label it political. I still have no idea why you label it freedom - especially when in the next post you admit that you reject freedom and democracy.

Quote:
Apparently. If one's opposition to the war could be in any way interpreted as being "beneficial" to the "enemy" then it would be classed as sedition.


Apparently - so you don't actually know if what you say is true? Have you thought about it? Have you seen many Australians criticise what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Have you seen any arrested for this criticism? Have you ever been to Australia?

Quote:
Can you provide an example of this fantasy of yours?


Sure. There have been a few arrested in Melbourne recently.
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #42 - Jun 28th, 2012 at 10:33pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jun 28th, 2012 at 10:16pm:
Soren wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 10:14pm:
Correct except for the bit about Islam being attractive to people...

Muslims like you...


Muslims like me? You mean average Aussies who embraced Islam and proved the point you're arguing hopelessly against?

I find it most interesting that out of all the Muslims who have ever posted on this forum


All 4? or was it 5?

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #43 - Jun 29th, 2012 at 8:03am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 28th, 2012 at 10:16pm:
Quote:
Have you not read a single post I've made in response to you here? My concept of political freedom differs from yours.


I get that it is different. I get that you label it political. I still have no idea why you label it freedom - especially when in the next post you admit that you reject freedom and democracy.


fd, I get that you're not the brightest spark, but come on. The word "freedom" by itself, without context is pretty meaningless. This argument reminds me of two people arguing over growing pumpkins. Because my pumpkin is bigger, therefore you never even grew a pumpkin.

freediver wrote on Jun 28th, 2012 at 10:16pm:
Quote:
Apparently. If one's opposition to the war could be in any way interpreted as being "beneficial" to the "enemy" then it would be classed as sedition.


Apparently - so you don't actually know if what you say is true? Have you thought about it? Have you seen many Australians criticise what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Have you seen any arrested for this criticism? Have you ever been to Australia?


Several Muslims have not only been arrested but convicted and given lengthy gaol terms just for such things.

freediver wrote on Jun 28th, 2012 at 10:16pm:
Quote:
Can you provide an example of this fantasy of yours?


Sure. There have been a few arrested in Melbourne recently.


And what great crime exactly did they commit? How many people did they harm? Or perhaps they thought about such a thing right??? But Australia doesn't prosecute for thought crimes, no no no. fd, do you not see the linkage between this point and the previous one?
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #44 - Jun 29th, 2012 at 8:04am
 
Soren wrote on Jun 28th, 2012 at 10:33pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Jun 28th, 2012 at 10:16pm:
Soren wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 10:14pm:
Correct except for the bit about Islam being attractive to people...

Muslims like you...


Muslims like me? You mean average Aussies who embraced Islam and proved the point you're arguing hopelessly against?

I find it most interesting that out of all the Muslims who have ever posted on this forum


All 4? or was it 5?


We are a random sampling of Muslims in Australia.

Just admit this is what you fear.
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