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Is This What We Can Look Forward To? (Read 31804 times)
freediver
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #270 - Jul 26th, 2012 at 8:14am
 
Abu, do you support attempts by fellow Muslims to destroy the fledgling democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan and impose Islamic law on those people against their wills?

Quote:
As a Muslim of course I believe in Shari'ah law, but it's something for the Muslim world to implement, nothing to do with Australia at all.


How extensive is this Muslim world? The entire historical Caliphate? Suppose they were successful, what then?

Quote:
Muslims have not even managed to implement Shari'ah in the Muslim-majority world for over 90 years now, therefore, even floating the question of implementing it in Australia simply makes no sense.


The reason of course is that those people have had Islam imposed them from above, just like you now want to do again but are afraid to admit it. They know what it is like, and they reject it.

Quote:
Therefore asking about it, or suggesting it's some kind of threat to the Australian society is just pure idiocy.


Can you explain how calling you impotent is the same as saying you are a threat to Australian society?

Quote:
You're not actually interested in my answer or my opinions or beliefs or views. Anti-Islamic hate-sites have told you there's an alternate answer I'm supposedly hiding from you, and you intend to keep asking until you get it.


No Abu, your own refusal to answer the question is what tells me that there is an answer that you are afraid to give.

Quote:
Thanks abu. Same thing i have been saying. They dont want to hear it.


Spot have you been saying that Muslims don't want to impose Shariah law on people, or that they are impotent to do so?

Did you intend to phrase the question as if Abu was about to overthrow the government, or did you merely ask what Abu wants to do, then accept his refusal to answer as agreement with you? Do you agree with Abu that your question was framed as if he was about to overthrow the government?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:48am:
Do you want sharia law for yourself and your family or for everyone in australia or are you not a sharia law person?

SOB
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« Last Edit: Jul 26th, 2012 at 8:28am by freediver »  

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abu_rashid
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #271 - Jul 26th, 2012 at 9:40am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 8:14am:
Abu, do you support attempts by fellow Muslims to destroy the fledgling democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan and impose Islamic law on those people against their wills?


This has gotta be the most loaded question you've ever asked, and you've asked some doozies before.

I support the rights of Muslims in their lands to expel foreign occupiers that try to enforce their way of life onto Muslims, and to re-establish their own way of life, ie. Islamic Caliphate.

And I'm sure you support the same, because all your crap here is about Muslims supposedly forcing our way of life onto Australia, so surely if you oppose that then you must oppose the Western armies trying to force their way of life onto Muslims, no?

freediver wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 8:14am:
The reason of course is that those people have had Islam imposed them from above, just like you now want to do again but are afraid to admit it. They know what it is like, and they reject it.

Can you explain how calling you impotent is the same as saying you are a threat to Australian society?

No Abu, your own refusal to answer the question is what tells me that there is an answer that you are afraid to give.


Put it to rest already, it's been answered (yet again), and nobody here is really all that interested in watching you ask the same question 15 thousand different ways (yet again).
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #272 - Jul 26th, 2012 at 9:44am
 
i have never beat my wife

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #273 - Jul 26th, 2012 at 12:27pm
 
Quote:
And I'm sure you support the same, because all your crap here is about Muslims supposedly forcing our way of life onto Australia, so surely if you oppose that then you must oppose the Western armies trying to force their way of life onto Muslims, no?


Democracy is not a way of life Abu. Nor is freedom. Rather, they permit people to choose their own way of life, both collectively and individually. You want democracy and freedom in Iraq and Afghanistan destroyed because you know that even there, people do not willingly choose Islamic law. Remember, I am talking about what you want, not what you are capable of achieving. That is what you want, right?

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #274 - Jul 26th, 2012 at 9:19pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 12:27pm:
You want democracy and freedom in Iraq and Afghanistan destroyed because you know that even there, people do not willingly choose Islamic law. Remember, I am talking about what you want, not what you are capable of achieving. That is what you want, right?


Sorry I forgot that you subscribe to the ridiculous propaganda line of the Western governments that Iraq & Afghanistan actually want their armies invading their countries. And that the Talibaan and others are just a few hundred individuals, who miraculously somehow have managed to fend off the world's combined superpowers for a good 11 years.
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #275 - Jul 26th, 2012 at 9:25pm
 
I agree Abu. The Islamic extremists number more than a few hundred and are a genuine threat to democracy and freedom.
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #276 - Jul 26th, 2012 at 9:26pm
 
Meanwhile in other breaking news....



Afghan policemen defect to Taliban in Farah province


An Afghan police commander and 13 junior officers have joined the Taliban in the western Afghan province of Farah, in what correspondents say could be the biggest defection by police.

They say the commander, named as Mirwais, was in charge of a 20-man checkpoint when he defected on Sunday.

The men are said to have taken heavy weaponry, radios and police vehicles including US-made armoured Humvees.

Farah is one of the most insecure areas in the relatively peaceful west.

The commander was based in Shewan village in the district of Bala Bulak, which was until recently considered a Taliban stronghold.

The insurgents were driven out of the area following a series of operations carried out by Afghan security forces. But local officials say insurgents have regrouped in the area recently.

Rarely reported
Police and intelligence officials deployed in the province said the commander poisoned seven policemen in his charge who had refused to defect along with him.

Quote:
Bilal Sarwary

BBC News, Kabul
Government officials, both in Kabul and the provinces, are shocked and confused. How could a senior police commander for a strategic district have defected? It is a huge embarrassment for the Afghan government - which also explains its silence.

There has been no press release, no statement. The incident took place late on Sunday night but full details emerged only on Tuesday.

But this is a clear case of a major intelligence failure and a further propaganda boost for the insurgents.

The reality is that commanders like Mirwais are key to the security and stability of remote villages and areas, where local deal-making and contacts are crucial to compensate for a weak Afghan government.


"Mirwais and his policemen had joined the force nearly two-and-a-half years ago. Mirwais had fought the insurgents in this area for quite some time," an Afghan intelligence official in the region told the BBC's Bilal Sarwary in Kabul.

"Long before he defected, he must have been passing intelligence and crucial information to the insurgents," the official said.

Officials said that the equipment taken by the defectors - rocket-propelled grenades, heavy machine-guns, radios and police vehicles, including two Humvees - will be a major boost to the Taliban in the area.

Humvees are prized trophies among Taliban commanders, both for their symbolic value and practical ability to travel over rough ground with armoured protection, correspondents say.

Our correspondent says this is believed to be the biggest police defection to the insurgents. Over the past few years similar incidents have taken place on a much smaller scale in the southern provinces of Kandahar, Helmand, Zabul, Uruzgan and in Ghor, Farah, Badghis and Herat in the west.

Such incidents have rarely been reported in the Afghan media, our correspondent says.

International forces have recently had increasing success in persuading Taliban fighters to come over to the government side.

Once relatively peaceful, Farah has seen increasing levels of violence. The Taliban and other insurgent groups are active in many districts, particularly those close to the provincial capital, which has witnessed recent attacks.

The province has a strategic position, bordering Iran, and the key Kandahar-Herat highway passes through Farah.

Source: BBC
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #277 - Jul 27th, 2012 at 5:29am
 
Ppl defending th4emselves arent necessarily "Extremists" they are trying to defend themselves. Labelling the enemy (in their own country) as "terrorists" is a good way to demonise them making it easier to slaughter them. I am thinking of Faluja now - the whole city had to be destroyed declared bush because the whole city is terrorists. War crime right there.

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #278 - Jul 27th, 2012 at 8:19am
 
Spot they are killing their fellow countrymen by the thousands. This is not in self defence, but to prevent the establishment of a functioning democracy - to prevent their fellow countrymen having a real say in how the country is run. Even Abu is opposed to having a real democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. You would have picked up on this by now if you didn't cover your ears every time Abu opens his mouth.

You asked me what my point was earlier. My point is that contrary to what you are saying, Islam is not 'just like any other religion'. It is a political system, a legal system (judge, jury and executioner), an economic system, a social system etc. It has more in common with political ideologies like Nazism than with other religions. And it is hostile to freedom and democracy.
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« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2012 at 8:27am by freediver »  

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #279 - Jul 27th, 2012 at 10:02am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 27th, 2012 at 8:19am:
Spot they are killing their fellow countrymen by the thousands. This is not in self defence, but to prevent the establishment of a functioning democracy - to prevent their fellow countrymen having a real say in how the country is run. Even Abu is opposed to having a real democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. You would have picked up on this by now if you didn't cover your ears every time Abu opens his mouth.

You asked me what my point was earlier. My point is that contrary to what you are saying, Islam is not 'just like any other religion'. It is a political system, a legal system (judge, jury and executioner), an economic system, a social system etc. It has more in common with political ideologies like Nazism than with other religions. And it is hostile to freedom and democracy.


No I saw him say that but he also said he didnt care if australia has its democracy. He just wants muslim countries to be muslim. Fair enough i reckon for a religious person Do you ant to stop israel being jewish?

Actually im not to keen on any theocracies myself but well i cant do anything about it and going around hating every single person in a religion just because of the extremists is counter-productive.

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #280 - Jul 27th, 2012 at 12:30pm
 
Quote:
but he also said he didnt care if australia has its democracy


No he didn't. He acknowledged his impotence to achieve the change he wants. This is not the same as saying he does not care or does not want the change.

Quote:
He just wants muslim countries to be muslim. Fair enough i reckon for a religious person Do you ant to stop israel being jewish?


Sure I care, especially if they start stoning people to death for apostasy. The idea that any country is religiously homogenous is a bit silly. You keep pointing out that not all Muslims are the same, yet here you are arguing that it is fair for Islamic extremists to impose their way in countries you consider to be Muslim. To what extent do you think we can attribute the fact that these countries are 'Muslim' to the fact that for much of the last millenium, the locals have faced the death penalty for saying the wrong thing?

Quote:
Actually im not to keen on any theocracies myself but well i cant do anything about it


Collectively, we are doing something about it right now. We are currently engaged in two wars to support fledgling democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan. The propaganda that you and Abu sprout could influence public opinion in a way that influences the outcome of these wars. It happened with Vietnam and can happen again. That is why Abu is trying so desperately to misrepresent his version of Islam as being tolerant of democracy and freedom, while at the same time trying to attack democracy and freedom. He wants people like you to think it is fair for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan to go through another hundred years of religious persecution at the hands of an oppressive regime and he wants you to think it isn't really so bad after all to live in that situation. We are now facing the tough decision of how much ongoing support to offer to the fledgling democracies, which is why Abu is trying to paint them as evil and corrupt at every opportunity and to pretend that the Taliban and Al Quaida are actually the popular choice among locals.

Quote:
and going around hating every single person in a religion just because of the extremists is counter-productive


You are creating a false dichotomy here Spot. It is not a choice between giving up and hating. There is a lot that can be done to promote and protect freedom and democracy. It starts with acknowledging the reality of the threat posed by Islam to freedom and democracy.
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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #281 - Jul 27th, 2012 at 1:25pm
 
Quote:
You are creating a false dichotomy here Spot. It is not a choice between giving up and hating. There is a lot that can be done to promote and protect freedom and democracy. It starts with acknowledging the reality of the threat posed by Islam to freedom and democracy.


No i was just speaking my mind. Dont twist things around. If all religion was gone from the earth tomorrow it would be a better place. It wont be though. And nobody is going to ban religion any time soon and banning it wouldn't stop the idiots from believing stuff anyway. The closest we can get is to ban the religious organisations from having any influence over politics @ all. We can take religion out of the schools and that should help in the fight against extremism.

Most religious ppl are harmless and their religion is just between them and their skyfairy.

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #282 - Jul 27th, 2012 at 1:40pm
 
Freediver:
Quote:
No he didn't. He acknowledged his impotence to achieve the change he wants. This is not the same as saying he does not care or does not want the change.



Abu:
Quote:
As a Muslim of course I believe in Shari'ah law, but it's something for the Muslim world to implement, nothing to do with Australia at all.


Look its not up to me to defend what abu says. In my experience muslims have never tried to make me follow their ways or hassled me to believe in their god or anything else. Some muslims may want sharia law for themselves and their families and maybe even their country (that would be extreme though) but abu pretty much said to me that he isnt working towards this goal.

There are xtian groups that prefer a theocracy too and they arent going to get it. The jews have a theocracy pretty much. There are several theocracies in the world. This doesnt mean every member of that country likes it.

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #283 - Jul 27th, 2012 at 5:54pm
 
Quote:
No i was just speaking my mind. Dont twist things around. If all religion was gone from the earth tomorrow it would be a better place. It wont be though. And nobody is going to ban religion any time soon and banning it wouldn't stop the idiots from believing stuff anyway. The closest we can get is to ban the religious organisations from having any influence over politics @ all. We can take religion out of the schools and that should help in the fight against extremism.


You are creating another false dichotomy here Spot. There are all sorts of options other than banning religion or attempting to ban religious influence in politics. Standing up for freedom and democracy is a good start, and does not require you to have any particular views on religion. The problem is not people believing in things you disagree with. The problem is when they start killing people because of it.

Quote:
Most religious ppl are harmless and their religion is just between them and their skyfairy.


Most are, but this is hardly the case with Abu and many Muslims. It is not the case across the middle east, where saying the wrong thing about religion is likely to get you lynched. This is not because of western interference. It is the way Muhammed intended it.

Quote:
Look its not up to me to defend what abu says.


Then why are you trying so hard to do so? There is nothing in that quote to indicate that Abu does not want Islam for Australia as well, and he did indicate in this thread that he does. Abu is simply refusing to give a straight answer, and you are interpretting his non-answers as agreement with you.

Quote:
In my experience muslims have never tried to make me follow their ways or hassled me to believe in their god or anything else.


That's because Islam is fundamentally different to other religions. Most religious people want you to know about their religion. This is not always the case with Islam. It frequently serves Islam's purpose for non-Muslims to know as little as possible. What other explanation could there be for Abu to go to such lengths to justify not answering simple questions, when the answer itself would be easier to compose and make him look less deceptive than the absurd justifications.

Quote:
Some muslims may want sharia law for themselves and their families and maybe even their country (that would be extreme though)


According to Abu it is mainstream. You only have to look at the middle east to see how many of them want to impose it on everyone and are willing to kill to get their way.

Quote:
but abu pretty much said to me that he isnt working towards this goal


No he did not say that. He has said the opposite many times. Again you are reading things into his posts that are simply not there. He is taking advantage of your tendency to assume that Islam is just like other religions and that religious people are upfront about their beliefs, and your tendency to fill in the gaps in what he actually posts with the benefit of the doubt.

Quote:
There are xtian groups that prefer a theocracy too


They are not the mainstream in Christianity. They are in Islam, because that is what Islam is. Abu even portrays this as a reason why Islam is better - because it is complete in the sense that it is a total government and political system too, not just a religion in the sense that you are familiar with.

Quote:
There are several theocracies in the world. This doesnt mean every member of that country likes it.


So why did you say it would be fair if that is what they got?
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« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2012 at 6:02pm by freediver »  

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Re: Is This What We Can Look Forward To?
Reply #284 - Jul 28th, 2012 at 7:14am
 
Quote:
You are creating another false dichotomy here Spot.


No im not because im not asking a question. Im stating what i think. Religion is the problem. Its primitive and its nasty. It has no place in public where it can effect other ppl not of the "faith".

Quote:
Most are, but this is hardly the case with Abu and many Muslims


Abu is not running around killing ppl or even stoning them. It would be on the news - he would be in jail.

Quote:
It frequently serves Islam's purpose for non-Muslims to know as little as possible. What other explanation could there be for Abu to go to such lengths . . . . . blah blah


Your explanation is flawed. Nobody gives you the answers you want to hear and so you say they arent answering questions. You are selectively blind and dont see it when its right in front of you because you want your belief that islam is evil and all muslims are evil to be true.

Islam is evil but so is xtinaity. They are on par with each other for evilness. Its just in western society women have risen up and gotten rights now so we look down on countries that havent achieved that yet and call them evil. (thats just an example)

Quote:
According to Abu it is mainstream. You only have to look at the middle east to see how many of them want to impose it on everyone and are willing to kill to get their way.


He didnt say that. He said they havent even been able to implement it in any countries in 90 years which means not enough ppl want it. Not mainstream.

Quote:
They are not the mainstream in Christianity.


If i am going to follow your logic then they are.

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