Australian Politics Forum - aboriginal discrimination

Cassy

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #15 - Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:04pm

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 3:50pm:

The intervention would never have come to pass had they taken responsibility for the problems within their communities. Their inaction showed they didn't want to address the issue, so it was addressed for them.

with what resources could they take action themselves???? it has been well publicised that Aboriginal people are living in the same standards, with the same access to resources as those in thrid world countries, how ever did you expect them to do this themselves. Aboriginal people were not inactive against addressing the issue, they cooperated with researchers and the human rights commission by giving them their stories, but telling them what their community was like.

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #16 - Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:08pm

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:04pm:

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 3:50pm:

The intervention would never have come to pass had they taken responsibility for the problems within their communities. Their inaction showed they didn't want to address the issue, so it was addressed for them.

with what resources could they take action themselves???? it has been well publicised that Aboriginal people are living in the same standards, with the same access to resources as those in thrid world countries, how ever did you expect them to do this themselves. Aboriginal people were not inactive against addressing the issue, they cooperated with researchers and the human rights commission by giving them their stories, but telling them what their community was like.

Are you serious? How many "resources" does a community need to say "oi you! stop raping kids OK!"
They'd actually be better equipped to deal with it than we are, seeing as how their justice consists of spearing offenders, or giving them a hiding, whereas we are bound rules and regualtions about "humane treatment" and burdens of proof etc.

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In the fullness of time...

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #17 - Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:15pm

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 3:27pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 2:58pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 2:49pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 2:35pm:

[quote author=5C7E6C6C661F0 link=1339126402/6#6 date=1339129881]

I take your point, however did anyone stop and think to ask for Aboriginal Australians input??? so the intervention could be better tailored to their culture? So Aboriginal people could take ownership over the problem and deal with it according to their culture with the support from the government?

Okay. What would their input consist of?

I can imagine, i do nnot know exactly because i am not directly impacted by the Northern Territoy intervention or the suspension of the Racial Discrimination act. But i can imagin they would want input on how the intervention would be implemented, that it would be cutlurally sensitive, they would want to have a say that under the Northern Territory Intervention Aboriginal people should still have rights and freedoms, they cant even decide where they want to get their groceries from or what they want to buy. Im sure if the goivernment asked for their opinions they would agree that something should be done about the high rates of violence and sexual abuse, however it should be done in an appropriate manner and Aboriginal people should get a say on this. Dont you agree?? out yourself in their shoes

It doesn't sound like you have much of an idea what the Aboriginals want. I thought you were knowledgeable in this area considering your dislike of the intervention.

If you have a list of demands or guidelines the Aboriginals have outlined to correct these problems, let me know.

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Cassy

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #18 - Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:29pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:15pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 3:27pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 2:58pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 2:49pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 2:35pm:

[quote author=5C7E6C6C661F0 link=1339126402/6#6 date=1339129881]

I take your point, however did anyone stop and think to ask for Aboriginal Australians input??? so the intervention could be better tailored to their culture? So Aboriginal people could take ownership over the problem and deal with it according to their culture with the support from the government?

Okay. What would their input consist of?

I can imagine, i do nnot know exactly because i am not directly impacted by the Northern Territoy intervention or the suspension of the Racial Discrimination act. But i can imagin they would want input on how the intervention would be implemented, that it would be cutlurally sensitive, they would want to have a say that under the Northern Territory Intervention Aboriginal people should still have rights and freedoms, they cant even decide where they want to get their groceries from or what they want to buy. Im sure if the goivernment asked for their opinions they would agree that something should be done about the high rates of violence and sexual abuse, however it should be done in an appropriate manner and Aboriginal people should get a say on this. Dont you agree?? out yourself in their shoes

It doesn't sound like you have much of an idea what the Aboriginals want. I thought you were knowledgeable in this area considering your dislike of the intervention.

If you have a list of demands or guidelines the Aboriginals have outlined to correct these problems, let me know.

Actually i have been doing research on this topic for a few months now, and am knowledgable in the area, however i do not feel comfortable sharing what I think Aboriginal people's input would be because i am not them, i am not in there situation so what gives me the right to say wht i think their input would be, its the same as what gives the government the right to take over their lives and huam rights

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Cassy

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #19 - Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:37pm

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:08pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:04pm:

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 3:50pm:

The intervention would never have come to pass had they taken responsibility for the problems within their communities. Their inaction showed they didn't want to address the issue, so it was addressed for them.

with what resources could they take action themselves???? it has been well publicised that Aboriginal people are living in the same standards, with the same access to resources as those in thrid world countries, how ever did you expect them to do this themselves. Aboriginal people were not inactive against addressing the issue, they cooperated with researchers and the human rights commission by giving them their stories, but telling them what their community was like.

Are you serious? How many "resources" does a community need to say "oi you! stop raping kids OK!"
They'd actually be better equipped to deal with it than we are, seeing as how their justice consists of spearing offenders, or giving them a hiding, whereas we are bound rules and regualtions about "humane treatment" and burdens of proof etc.

Aboriginal people too are bound by burdens and proof, why else would there be so many Aboriginal People in the justice system if as you say they are not bound by these rules? and yes i am serious that they need resources to be able to stop the violence and sexual abuse, services need to be put in place to guide Aborgininal people, to give them access to help if they want it, to give them early intervention to prevent violnce and sexual abuse occuring. These behavious are steming from there mothers and grandparents who have been traumatised by the stolen generation and assimilation policies. Aboriginal people are not to blame here. we are for not giving them the supporta nd guidence they need. And you say why do they need resources when you can just tell them 'oi you, stop raping that kid' do we do that in our society??? if its this easy how come there is still rape, abuse, violnce occuring in our society.

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #20 - Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:53pm

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:37pm:

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:08pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:04pm:

[quote author=52405649405C2B554C554056050 link=1339126402/12#12 date=1339134605]The intervention would never have come to pass had they taken responsibility for the problems within their communities. Their inaction showed they didn't want to address the issue, so it was addressed for them.

with what resources could they take action themselves???? it has been well publicised that Aboriginal people are living in the same standards, with the same access to resources as those in thrid world countries, how ever did you expect them to do this themselves. Aboriginal people were not inactive against addressing the issue, they cooperated with researchers and the human rights commission by giving them their stories, but telling them what their community was like.

Are you serious? How many "resources" does a community need to say "oi you! stop raping kids OK!"
They'd actually be better equipped to deal with it than we are, seeing as how their justice consists of spearing offenders, or giving them a hiding, whereas we are bound rules and regualtions about "humane treatment" and burdens of proof etc.

Quote:

Aboriginal people too are bound by burdens and proof, why else would there be so many Aboriginal People in the justice system if as you say they are not bound by these rules?

Tribal law doesn't put people behind bars - that's the white mans justice system. Abos in prison are there because they transgressed the laws of this country. Tribal law would punish them differently, ie a spear in the leg, or a whack on the head.

Quote:

and yes i am serious that they need resources to be able to stop the violence and sexual abuse, services need to be put in place to guide Aborgininal people, to give them access to help if they want it, to give them early intervention to prevent violnce and sexual abuse occuring.

Hmm...sounds a lot like whitey imposing his beliefs and sytems on the poor O-pressed blackfellas. Are you sure tahts' the best way for them to go about "practising their culture"?

Quote:

These behavious are steming from there mothers and grandparents who have been traumatised by the stolen generation and assimilation policies.

Yaaaaawn.

Quote:

Aboriginal people are not to blame here.

No, of course not. Whitey forces them to rape their kids.

Quote:

we are for not giving them the supporta nd guidence they need.

So much for wanting autonomy.

Quote:

And you say why do they need resources when you can just tell them 'oi you, stop raping that kid' do we do that in our society??? if its this easy how come there is still rape, abuse, violnce occuring in our society.

In the small communities we're talking about, with a maximum of a few hundred people, that is all it takes. When populations grow to city size, it's harder to root out. Think about it. If a community has 100 people, and 10 of those are raping kids - why can't the 90 others stand against them? They can of course - if only they wanted to.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #21 - Jun 8^th, 2012 at 5:13pm

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:37pm:

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:08pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:04pm:

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 3:50pm:

The intervention would never have come to pass had they taken responsibility for the problems within their communities. Their inaction showed they didn't want to address the issue, so it was addressed for them.

with what resources could they take action themselves???? it has been well publicised that Aboriginal people are living in the same standards, with the same access to resources as those in thrid world countries, how ever did you expect them to do this themselves. Aboriginal people were not inactive against addressing the issue, they cooperated with researchers and the human rights commission by giving them their stories, but telling them what their community was like.

Are you serious? How many "resources" does a community need to say "oi you! stop raping kids OK!"
They'd actually be better equipped to deal with it than we are, seeing as how their justice consists of spearing offenders, or giving them a hiding, whereas we are bound rules and regualtions about "humane treatment" and burdens of proof etc.

Aboriginal people too are bound by burdens and proof, why else would there be so many Aboriginal People in the justice system if as you say they are not bound by these rules? and yes i am serious that they need resources to be able to stop the violence and sexual abuse, services need to be put in place to guide Aborgininal people, to give them access to help if they want it, to give them early intervention to prevent violnce and sexual abuse occuring. These behavious are steming from there mothers and grandparents who have been traumatised by the stolen generation and assimilation policies. Aboriginal people are not to blame here. we are for not giving them the supporta nd guidence they need. And you say why do they need resources when you can just tell them 'oi you, stop raping that kid' do we do that in our society??? if its this easy how come there is still rape, abuse, violnce occuring in our society.

Those committing the acts are to blame. You can't shift things like rape and battery onto the acts of some white people a few decades ago. This type of vague cause and effect opens the gates to all sorts of crimes being palmed off onto acts by some other race in the past.

Can the British blame the French everytime they do something wrong?

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Cassy

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #22 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 4:13pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 5:13pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:37pm:

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:08pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:04pm:

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 3:50pm:

The intervention would never have come to pass had they taken responsibility for the problems within their communities. Their inaction showed they didn't want to address the issue, so it was addressed for them.

with what resources could they take action themselves???? it has been well publicised that Aboriginal people are living in the same standards, with the same access to resources as those in thrid world countries, how ever did you expect them to do this themselves. Aboriginal people were not inactive against addressing the issue, they cooperated with researchers and the human rights commission by giving them their stories, but telling them what their community was like.

Are you serious? How many "resources" does a community need to say "oi you! stop raping kids OK!"
They'd actually be better equipped to deal with it than we are, seeing as how their justice consists of spearing offenders, or giving them a hiding, whereas we are bound rules and regualtions about "humane treatment" and burdens of proof etc.

Aboriginal people too are bound by burdens and proof, why else would there be so many Aboriginal People in the justice system if as you say they are not bound by these rules? and yes i am serious that they need resources to be able to stop the violence and sexual abuse, services need to be put in place to guide Aborgininal people, to give them access to help if they want it, to give them early intervention to prevent violnce and sexual abuse occuring. These behavious are steming from there mothers and grandparents who have been traumatised by the stolen generation and assimilation policies. Aboriginal people are not to blame here. we are for not giving them the supporta nd guidence they need. And you say why do they need resources when you can just tell them 'oi you, stop raping that kid' do we do that in our society??? if its this easy how come there is still rape, abuse, violnce occuring in our society.

Those committing the acts are to blame. You can't shift things like rape and battery onto the acts of some white people a few decades ago. This type of vague cause and effect opens the gates to all sorts of crimes being palmed off onto acts by some other race in the past.

Can the British blame the French everytime they do something wrong?

True, however we need to take some responsibility for what is happening in the Northern Territory,and i would expect the french to take some responsibility also. why dont peopple take respionsibility, or at least understand that people are living in dyer circumstances becasue of the impacts we have had on their culture?

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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #23 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 5:04pm

Dear Cassy,

When the tall-ships sailed into Botany Bay more than just 200 years ago - yesterday.
A group of Aboriginals ('Ophirians' <Ophir> as the Africans called them via very old 'rumors' that go with Lemuria and Mu Mu) upon a hill...

One yelled "Invasion!" (not that this continent of peoples ever knew what an invasion was)
Another yelled "Freedom!" and bought tickets on the next Virgin Airline to go 'walkabout' around the world.
Another "Renters!" and counted the $$$ that no other peoples in the world get for 'nuthin'.
Another woke up and said "There goes the Dreamtime of being asleep for so long."

All in all, when you look at it. The Aboriginals had 40,000 years up their sleeve and only now do they realise that this part of the world never really belonged to them afterall = the Africans sold them out!
So if I was a Abo, I would just get on with the fact that I am no different to anyone else in the world - for something lost is something gained.
Lose Australia and Gain the World.

...whattaya think eh? Huh

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #24 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 6:37pm

Cassy wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 4:13pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 5:13pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:37pm:

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:08pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:04pm:

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 3:50pm:

The intervention would never have come to pass had they taken responsibility for the problems within their communities. Their inaction showed they didn't want to address the issue, so it was addressed for them.

with what resources could they take action themselves???? it has been well publicised that Aboriginal people are living in the same standards, with the same access to resources as those in thrid world countries, how ever did you expect them to do this themselves. Aboriginal people were not inactive against addressing the issue, they cooperated with researchers and the human rights commission by giving them their stories, but telling them what their community was like.

Are you serious? How many "resources" does a community need to say "oi you! stop raping kids OK!"
They'd actually be better equipped to deal with it than we are, seeing as how their justice consists of spearing offenders, or giving them a hiding, whereas we are bound rules and regualtions about "humane treatment" and burdens of proof etc.

Aboriginal people too are bound by burdens and proof, why else would there be so many Aboriginal People in the justice system if as you say they are not bound by these rules? and yes i am serious that they need resources to be able to stop the violence and sexual abuse, services need to be put in place to guide Aborgininal people, to give them access to help if they want it, to give them early intervention to prevent violnce and sexual abuse occuring. These behavious are steming from there mothers and grandparents who have been traumatised by the stolen generation and assimilation policies. Aboriginal people are not to blame here. we are for not giving them the supporta nd guidence they need. And you say why do they need resources when you can just tell them 'oi you, stop raping that kid' do we do that in our society??? if its this easy how come there is still rape, abuse, violnce occuring in our society.

Those committing the acts are to blame. You can't shift things like rape and battery onto the acts of some white people a few decades ago. This type of vague cause and effect opens the gates to all sorts of crimes being palmed off onto acts by some other race in the past.

Can the British blame the French everytime they do something wrong?

True, however we need to take some responsibility for what is happening in the Northern Territory,and i would expect the french to take some responsibility also. why dont peopple take respionsibility, or at least understand that people are living in dyer circumstances becasue of the impacts we have had on their culture?

The French are irrelevant in this case. I used that as an example of the 1066 Norman conquest of Britain.

If 'we' collectively are to take responsibility for Aboriginal crime, by that I believe you mean those of British descent, do Aboriginals have to also take collective responsibility whenever someone of their race commits a crime?
For example, an uncle of mine got beat up on a bridge in Lismore a few years ago by some Abo's. Should all Abo's take responsibility here? Also, when a mate of mine got a beer bottle smashed against his face in Grafton one afternoon by an Abo, should all Abo's take responsibility here? If not, why not? Why is it one rule for the whites of British descent and a different one for Abo's?

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Cassy

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #25 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 6:38pm

i take your point that by colonisation the world was opened up to Aborginal people. However as i made this point earlier in the discussion, with what money or resources are Aboriginal people going to be able to explore the world with?

and i disagree with your thought of Aboriginal people should just get on with it as they are no dofferent to anyone else. I see them as different from everyone else, the same way i see refugees and people from other cutlural backgrounds as different. We cant expect them to get over the adversities they have gone through. we cant expect them just to suck it up and deal with it becasue thats the way it is.

for something lost is forever lost and will never be regained and due to this a culture, an experince an individual will never be the same. how can we ask Aboriginal people to be thankful for having the world opened up to them when they never asked for it? when all it has brought is discrimination, suffering and a lack of human rights and equality?

i am curious have any of you actually thought about what it would be like to be an Aborginal in any of these circumstances??

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Cassy

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #26 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 6:55pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 6:37pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 4:13pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 5:13pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:37pm:

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:08pm:

Cassy wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 4:04pm:

... wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 3:50pm:

The intervention would never have come to pass had they taken responsibility for the problems within their communities. Their inaction showed they didn't want to address the issue, so it was addressed for them.

with what resources could they take action themselves???? it has been well publicised that Aboriginal people are living in the same standards, with the same access to resources as those in thrid world countries, how ever did you expect them to do this themselves. Aboriginal people were not inactive against addressing the issue, they cooperated with researchers and the human rights commission by giving them their stories, but telling them what their community was like.

Are you serious? How many "resources" does a community need to say "oi you! stop raping kids OK!"
They'd actually be better equipped to deal with it than we are, seeing as how their justice consists of spearing offenders, or giving them a hiding, whereas we are bound rules and regualtions about "humane treatment" and burdens of proof etc.

Aboriginal people too are bound by burdens and proof, why else would there be so many Aboriginal People in the justice system if as you say they are not bound by these rules? and yes i am serious that they need resources to be able to stop the violence and sexual abuse, services need to be put in place to guide Aborgininal people, to give them access to help if they want it, to give them early intervention to prevent violnce and sexual abuse occuring. These behavious are steming from there mothers and grandparents who have been traumatised by the stolen generation and assimilation policies. Aboriginal people are not to blame here. we are for not giving them the supporta nd guidence they need. And you say why do they need resources when you can just tell them 'oi you, stop raping that kid' do we do that in our society??? if its this easy how come there is still rape, abuse, violnce occuring in our society.

Those committing the acts are to blame. You can't shift things like rape and battery onto the acts of some white people a few decades ago. This type of vague cause and effect opens the gates to all sorts of crimes being palmed off onto acts by some other race in the past.

Can the British blame the French everytime they do something wrong?

True, however we need to take some responsibility for what is happening in the Northern Territory,and i would expect the french to take some responsibility also. why dont peopple take respionsibility, or at least understand that people are living in dyer circumstances becasue of the impacts we have had on their culture?

The French are irrelevant in this case. I used that as an example of the 1066 Norman conquest of Britain.

If 'we' collectively are to take responsibility for Aboriginal crime, by that I believe you mean those of British descent, do Aboriginals have to also take collective responsibility whenever someone of their race commits a crime?
For example, an uncle of mine got beat up on a bridge in Lismore a few years ago by some Abo's. Should all Abo's take responsibility here? Also, when a mate of mine got a beer bottle smashed against his face in Grafton one afternoon by an Abo, should all Abo's take responsibility here? If not, why not? Why is it one rule for the whites of British descent and a different one for Abo's?

By we i am meaning anyone who is a decendent of those who impinged injustices on Aboriginal people.

and no i dont think Aboriginal people should take responsibility when anyone who is Aboriginal commits a crime. why should they, no other culture takes responsibility for crimes commited by one person, or even a few people.

however this argument is different, i am talking about taking responsibility for ruining a culture, for forcing them to assimilate to our culture, for trying to 'bread' their culture away and for the way they are living today. this is totally different to commiting one crime, this is many injustices committed by one culture to another that have had serious consequences, not only on one person but on generations of Aboriginal people. how can we not take responsibility for the issues Aboriginal people are facing today??

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: aboriginal discrimination
Reply #27 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 7:02pm

Cassy wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 6:55pm: