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Islam is a barrier to peace (Read 5161 times)
freediver
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Islam is a barrier to peace
May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm
 
The topic of Rachel Corrie came up in this thread:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1337036409/50#50

She was an American woman killed while protesting the bulldozing of homes in Palestine. There is disagreement over the exact circumstances, but let's stick with the 'Palestinian' version - she was deliberately run over by a bulldozer while standing in its path as a protest.

I pointed out that this woman is an example to all Palestinians - one that they are unfortunately very unlikely to follow. What followed was one of those intriguing cases where people who disagree with you prove your point. Falah started out by claiming that the only reason she received worldwide media attention was because she was a white American - it was a racist thing. He attempted to prove this by posting examples of Muslims doing the same thing and not getting the same level of media attention. The only problem is, they were not actually doing the same thing. Falah demonstrated that even for well-off Muslims on the other side of the world, it is impossible to distinguish what made Rachel Corrie so special.

So what makes her special? Basically, she defended the rights of others in a way that was not violent and did not threaten violence, but interfered with actions she considered to be wrong.

There are many iconic examples of non-violent civil disobedience that the rest of the world looks to. Examples include Jesus standing down soldiers who would save him, Ghandi making salt, Mandela rescuing South Africa from almost inevitable violence, the tank man of Tiananmen square man staring down the Chinese army, many of the eastern philosophers, right down to hippies chaining themselves to trees. You can see it for yourself when the leaders of obviously impassioned protestors plea for peaceful interactions with authorities. This is not to say that Ghandi and Mandela for example rejected violence outright. They acknowledged that the aggressor or oppressor can lower the bar and force the conflict 'down'. However today the internet and the prevalence of cameras and videos makes even the most hardened dictator nervous about public violence. It is just a shame that there are no photos or videos publicly available that show what actually happened to Corrie.

So why is this concept so alien to Muslims? I would like to suggest two reasons. They both boil down to a misunderstanding in the west of what Muslims actually want.

1) Martyrdom and virgins. I don't think you get your virgins unless you make at least a token effort at aggression. So instead of standing in front of a tank, the Palestinians throw rocks at it. From an Islamic perspective the outcome is better - you die a martyr. These martyrs become local heroes and inspire others to blow themselves up and do whatever they can. To the civilised world it is a PR disaster. Your death is wasted. Instead of a global outcry, people see your video on the internet, throwing rocks at armed soldiers, and think 'what a loser'. There was genuine outcry over Rachel Corrie. People even organised a boycott of Caterpillar (the manufacturer of the bulldozers) until they stopped selling to Israel. But these efforts keep fizzling out because Palestinians destroy them.

2) The Palestinians, and Muslims in general, do not want peace. Islam is a religion of power and oppression. It cannot cope with losing a war. It cannot cope with trying to make peace with the victors. It cannot cope with a Jewish homeland in land 'owned' by Islam. When Muslims say peace, they mean the peace that comes with military victory. What Muslims want is victory or death. What Islam permits for Muslims in victory would make the Israelis look like Ghandi. Fortunately they have been denied victory for a very long time (even when they greatly outnumbered Israel). So that only leaves them with the option of death. Would-be terrorists arrested in the UK are often the children of Muslim immigrants who left the middle east to escape the endless cycles of violence. Unfortunately many of their children are raised as good Muslims and feel compelled to import the endless violence from their ancestral homeland.

Muslims actually want the bloodshed to continue, because once it ends, it means they lost. If they keep the death toll rising, it is still not over, like Rocky on the ground, but not yet out for the count. You only have to see Abu and Falah talking about the great victory to come (not the peace) to get a feel for what they want.
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falah
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #1 - May 22nd, 2012 at 2:42pm
 

If Australia was invaded by China you would prefer to lie down in front of Chinese tanks than take up arms? You are both a liar and a coward Freeliar



freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
1) Martyrdom and virgins. I don't think you get your virgins unless you make at least a token effort at aggression. So instead of standing in front of a tank, the Palestinians throw rocks at it. From an Islamic perspective the outcome is better - you die a martyr. These martyrs become local heroes and inspire others to blow themselves up and do whatever they can. To the civilised world it is a PR disaster. Your death is wasted. Instead of a global outcry, people see your video on the internet, throwing rocks at armed soldiers, and think 'what a loser'. There was genuine outcry over Rachel Corrie. People even organised a boycott of Caterpillar (the manufacturer of the bulldozers) until they stopped selling to Israel. But these efforts keep fizzling out because Palestinians destroy them.



Freeliar when will your lies end? Every Believing Muslim man who goes to Heaven will be married to beautiful wives.

Arabic doesn't even have a word for "martyr" although the word "shaeed" (witness) is often translated as "martyr".

Whoever dies doing God's work is considered a shaheed. There are also other types of shaeeds:

Quote:
It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of God (peace & blessings of God upon him) said: “There are five (types) of shaheed: the one who dies of the plague; the one who dies of stomach illness (al-mabtoon); the one who drowns; the one who is crushed by a falling wall; and the one who dies for the sake of God.”
[Bukhari & Muslim]

In another hadeth the categories of “…the one who dies of pleurisy, and the woman who dies together (with her baby).”
[al-Tirmidhi (1846), Abu Dawood (311) and Ibn Maajah (2803)]



Quote:
It was reported in the hadeeth of al-Miqdaam ibn Ma’di Karb that the Prophet (peace & blessings of God upon him) said:

“The shaheed has seven blessings from God: he is forgiven from the moment his blood is first shed; he will be shown his place in Paradise (before the Day of Judgement); he will be spared from the torment of the grave; and he will be secure on the Day of the Greatest Terror (the Day of Judgement); there will be placed on his head a crown of dignity, one ruby of which is better than this world and all that is in it; he will be married to seventy-two of beuatiful-eyed maidens; and he will be permitted to intercede for seventy of his relatives.”
[Tirmidhi]






freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
The Palestinians, and Muslims in general, do not want peace.


But it is the Israelis who have rejected 7 peace plans in the last 40 years.

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
Islam is a religion of power and oppression


C'mon Freeliar, we have seen who the oppressors are. The Spanish inquisition, The Conquest of the Americas and the slaughter of American Indians, periodic pogroms against jews in Europe culminating in the holocaust, while islamic governments have always given refuge to Jews.


The greatest oppressors in the last 2000 years have been Christians, usually the catholic church. We could also mention the persecution of intellectuals by the 'flat Earth' church.

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
It cannot cope with losing a war.


Freeliar. What is it with you and the lies? Muslims have won and lost many wars. When Muslims turn away from Islam, they have become weak and lost. God Almighty then generates new groups of Muslims to hold the banner of monotheism high.

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
It cannot cope with trying to make peace with the victors.


You mean surrender. Muslims don't surrender. Do you consider surrender a praiseworthy act? Why don't you go and live in France you surrender-monkey?



freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
It cannot cope with a Jewish homeland in land 'owned' by Islam.

Jews lived in Muslim land with peace and security for centuries while they were persecuted by the Catholic church.

Do Muslims accept that jews steal land and dispossess Muslim? Of course not. Who would accept that?



freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
When Muslims say peace, they mean the peace that comes with military victory.


Oh really? Historically, Muslims have made hundreds of peace treaties. Lookat the history of the Catholic Crusades.
One of the things that first interested me in Islam was seeing the honour of the Muslims during the Crusades. Saladin would always honour peace treaties. The shifty Christians would always break the treaties.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
What Muslims want is victory..

Because nobody else wants victory?


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
or death.


More lies Freeliar? You sure are full of them.


Quote:
The Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “The best of people is the one who lives long and does good.”
[Narrated by Ahmad and al-Tirmidhi, 110; classed as "authentic" by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi]


and he said

Quote:
Glad tidings to the one who lives long and does good.
[Narrated by al-Tabaraani and Abu Na’eem, classed as "authentic" by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 3928]


Quote:
Abu Hurayrah said: "Two men became Muslim with the Prophet. One of them became a shaheed, and the other remained (alive) for another year. Talhah ibn ‘Ubaydullaah said: I was shown Paradise (in a dream), and in it I saw that the one who was delayed was admitted before the martyr. I was surprised by that, so the next morning I told the Messenger of God (peace and blessings of God be upon him) about that. The Messenger of God said: “Did he not fast (the month of) Ramadaan after he (the shaheed) was gone, and pray six thousand rak’ahs, or such and such a number of units of prayers for one year?”"
[Ahmad; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 2591. al-‘Ajlooni said in Kashf al-Khafa’: its chain of narrators is "good" ]



Quote:
A man said: “O Messenger of God, which of the people is best?” He said: “The one who lives long and does good.” He said: “Which of the people is worst?” He said: “The one who lives long and does evil.”
[Ahmad and al-Tirmidhi, 2330; classed as "authentic" by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi]



Quote:
It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of God said: “No one of you should wish for death or pray for it before it comes, for when one of you dies, his good deeds come to an end and for the believer a long life will not increase him in anything but good.”
[Muslim, 2682]



Quote:
“Do not wish to meet the enemy, but ask God to keep you safe and sound.”
[Bukari & Muslim]



freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
What Islam permits for Muslims in victory would make the Israelis look like Ghandi.

More lies Freeliar? Jews lived peacefully under Islamic states for centuries.



freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
Would-be terrorists arrested in the UK are often the children of Muslim immigrants who left the middle east to escape the endless cycles of violence. Unfortunately many of their children are raised as good Muslims and feel compelled to import the endless violence from their ancestral homeland

More lies Freeliar? There have been a small number of Muslims arrested which is small in comparison to the number of Catholic Christian terrorist arrested. The Muslims who were arrested mostly come from sub-continental (not Middle Eastern) families that are not often very religious. They were motivated by the oppression of Muslims in the Christian invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, not by religious doctrine.

Did the Uk have such arrests before the UK decided to kill Muslims in Afghanistan?

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:21pm:
Muslims actually want the bloodshed to continue


People can see through your lies Freeliar.
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #2 - May 22nd, 2012 at 6:21pm
 
Quote:
God Almighty then generates new groups of Muslims to hold the banner of monotheism high


You mean, win back what was previously lost, by military conquest?

Quote:
You mean surrender. Muslims don't surrender.


Exactly. Thanks for proving my point Falah. Everyone else surrenders when they lose. Why are Muslims so keen to die?

Quote:
Do you consider surrender a praiseworthy act?


It is better than refusing to acknowledge you lost a war. Going to the toilet is not a praiseworthy act, but it sure beats crapping on the floor.

Quote:
More lies Freeliar? Jews lived peacefully under Islamic states for centuries.


See, the Jews can do it, even as second class citizens. But Muslims would rather die, apparently.

Quote:
People can see through your lies Freeliar.


Falah, what is the difference between refusing to surrender when you have lost so miserably, and not wanting the bloodshed to continue? Do you actually think the Palestinians are on the verge of some kind of victory?
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #3 - May 22nd, 2012 at 6:28pm
 

...
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #4 - May 22nd, 2012 at 6:29pm
 
...
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #5 - May 22nd, 2012 at 6:32pm
 
FD, have you read her letters home?
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #6 - May 22nd, 2012 at 6:34pm
 
No. I read the first bit of her wikipedia page.

Is there anything of particular interest in them?
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #7 - May 22nd, 2012 at 6:39pm
 
Yes. They are mainly emails to her mother and tey offer a lot of insight. If you don't think the website is reliable, there are many others that carry the letters. The Guardian published them, I believe.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/rachelsletters.html

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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #8 - May 22nd, 2012 at 7:04pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 6:39pm:
Yes. They are mainly emails to her mother and tey offer a lot of insight. If you don't think the website is reliable, there are many others that carry the letters. The Guardian published them, I believe.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/rachelsletters.html



Yeah. Bastards. Apparently avram is one of them. Thing is he prolly doesnt know any different. Well he should now. Wonder if he will read the letters?

SOB
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #9 - May 22nd, 2012 at 7:16pm
 
Any particular insights?
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #10 - May 22nd, 2012 at 7:27pm
 
Why don't you read them and see?
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #11 - May 22nd, 2012 at 7:31pm
 
I don't read everything people recommend to me, especially if they can't suggest why I should read it. One man's insight is another man's bleeding obvious.
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #12 - May 22nd, 2012 at 7:55pm
 
Then don't.

You don't mind using Rachel's death as an "example to all Palestinians" but make no attempt to understand her motivation for being there.
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #13 - May 22nd, 2012 at 8:54pm
 
It was her methods that interested me.
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #14 - May 22nd, 2012 at 9:32pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 7:55pm:
Then don't.

You don't mind using Rachel's death as an "example to all Palestinians" but make no attempt to understand her motivation for being there.


Annie she should not be there. You know that,
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