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Should Islam have a reformation? (Read 7489 times)
NorthOfNorth
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #30 - May 10th, 2012 at 7:02am
 
A favourite quote of Pope Innocent III from Jeremiah reinforcing Papal authority over monarchs - "See, today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant.”
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #31 - May 10th, 2012 at 7:11am
 
freediver wrote on May 9th, 2012 at 10:09pm:
In the case of Islam, Muhammed seized power with the sword and gave a religious mandate over everything to himself and the Caliphs that followed.


This is false. He attained power through an arrangement. The people of Yathrib (later Madinah) established an agreement with him, that he would arbitrate over their disputes, and bring peace to their town and tribes, and that they would make him their leader and adopt Islam.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #32 - May 10th, 2012 at 8:41am
 
Quote:
I'm not arguing that the Koran makes more explicit claims of its leaders' right to rule, I dispute that the Popes did not also claim the same from a scriptural basis and through subsequent church doctrine.


There is a big difference between saying you have power and actually having that power. Your own examples demonstrate that despite granting themselves the right, they never actually took power. Throughout the entire history of Christianity, the church always left open a political power vacuum. This vacuum was always filled by some kind of state authority that was always distinguishable from the church. As Sprint pointed out, this had it's origins in Christianity's roots. It is not an accident of history.

Quote:
Nor did they give up power easily and were ultimately forced to do so at gunpoint.


Were the guns actually fired, or are you telling me the church gave up two millenia of 'authority' without a fight?

Quote:
In the cases of the Caliphs and the popes, their power was constrained by the interests of other same-faith rulers competing for temporal power.


Under Islamic doctrine, there is only one Caliph. This is how it was for the early history of Islam. It was not until Islam itself was conquered in the political sense that the more complicated situations arose. The Caliphs were nothing like the pope. They were political leaders in every way, as well as spiritual ones. Obviously political leaders, even dictators, have to appease powerful people internally. This is not a separation of church and state or a pathway to reform. This is the nature of politics.

By the way, if appeasing those people involves any kind of deviation from Islam's 'complete and uchangeable' set of statutes, then Islam forbids it. Likewise, the Caliph himself only has a mandate to implement Islamic law. If he deviates, Muslims are to kill him. The modern 'non-Islamic' states in the middle east came about through military destruction of Islam, not by reform. And to this day Muslims are called to slaughter anyone in their way and re-establish a 1400 year old lawbook. It is their military impotence, not some kind of permissibility in Islam, that prevents this.

Quote:
How would Shi'ites and Sunnis agree on who should be Caliph today, I wonder.


No need to wonder. I have asked Abu this. He would slaughter all the Iranian and other Shite leaders.They ought to be stoned to death for apostasy. This is not theoretical. This is what they would actually do if given the means and opportunity. And means and opportunity is what Islam is all about. It is a religion of power. It is not some natural internal process to Islam that lead to the current situation in the middle east. It is because of external influence. The Shites themselves would come under Sunni rule and would apparently be given a chance to repent.

I'm sure the Shites have their own version of this story. Neither would accomodate power sharing within Islam.

Quote:
This is false. He attained power through an arrangement. The people of Yathrib (later Madinah) established an agreement with him, that he would arbitrate over their disputes, and bring peace to their town and tribes, and that they would make him their leader and adopt Islam.


I think you left out a small section of Muhammed's story Abu. I will give you the opportunity to fill in the gaps, lest people think you were being sneaky.
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« Last Edit: May 10th, 2012 at 8:48am by freediver »  

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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #33 - May 10th, 2012 at 6:32pm
 
freediver wrote on May 10th, 2012 at 8:41am:
Quote:
I'm not arguing that the Koran makes more explicit claims of its leaders' right to rule, I dispute that the Popes did not also claim the same from a scriptural basis and through subsequent church doctrine.


There is a big difference between saying you have power and actually having that power. Your own examples demonstrate that despite granting themselves the right, they never actually took power. Throughout the entire history of Christianity, the church always left open a political power vacuum. This vacuum was always filled by some kind of state authority that was always distinguishable from the church. As Sprint pointed out, this had it's origins in Christianity's roots. It is not an accident of history.

The difference between arrogating power and proving it is yours is in the wielding. True for Popes and Caliphs alike and never mind the texts.

Papal power has always been relative to the degree of European peoples' religiosity. The greater their religiosity, the greater they are willing to submit to religious authority over secular/temporal rule - God, King, Country respectively. The Schism, Protestantism and the rise of faith in reason over god has permanently eroded religious authority.

I'd imagine, in Muslim countries, the power of a Caliph would be (like the Popes) commensurate with religiosity that reflects a willingness to submit transcending sectarianism and secularism.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #34 - May 10th, 2012 at 7:43pm
 
Quote:
The difference between arrogating power and proving it is yours is in the wielding. True for Popes and Caliphs alike and never mind the texts


The Caliphs wielded power and ran the state directly. The monarchs ran the state directly in Europe. The pope could approve or disapprove, but even when the monarchs completely rejected his authority he was in practice powerless to prevent it. In Islam, the Caliph would have simply lopped off their heads (and did so many times) as soon as he found out and it would have been all over.

Quote:
I'd imagine, in Muslim countries, the power of a Caliph would be (like the Popes) commensurate with religiosity that reflects a willingness to submit transcending sectarianism and secularism.


No entirely true. The Caliph wields genuine power in a political sense like a dictator. A dictator does not even need to be of the same religion. Saddam for example was a Sunni, who are a minority in Iraq. The Caliph has absolute authority up until you depose him, because he is obligued to kill you if you attempt to undermine Islamic law.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #35 - May 11th, 2012 at 8:27am
 
Christianity and Islam are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this. Christianity gives direct biblical support for the separation of church and state. It also gives very little specific guidance for the 'affairs of state'.

Obviously both religions oppose internal reform. It's just that for Christianity the 'internal stuff' boils down to religious affairs, whereas for Islam it covers absolutely every aspect of your life and the affairs of state, including religion, politics, law, warfare, taxation, right down to drinking camel urine and wiping your arse with your left hand.

So if you ask a 'Christian' leader what is the correct Christian level of taxation, you would get laughed at. On the other hand if you asked a Muslim he would go to the Koran or Hadith and find the answer for you (unless of course he thought it would be better if you didn't know, in which case he would tell you about a 13th century non-Muslim king who over taxed his subjects).
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #36 - May 11th, 2012 at 11:55pm
 
freediver wrote on May 10th, 2012 at 8:41am:
No need to wonder. I have asked Abu this. He would slaughter all the Iranian and other Shite leaders.They ought to be stoned to death for apostasy. This is not theoretical. This is what they would actually do if given the means and opportunity.


Quote please.

Or concede the fact that you're nothing but a repeatedly discredited liar.

freediver wrote on May 10th, 2012 at 8:41am:
Quote:
This is false. He attained power through an arrangement. The people of Yathrib (later Madinah) established an agreement with him, that he would arbitrate over their disputes, and bring peace to their town and tribes, and that they would make him their leader and adopt Islam.


I think you left out a small section of Muhammed's story Abu. I will give you the opportunity to fill in the gaps, lest people think you were being sneaky.


That is how he attained power, and I challenge you to produce any credible narrative that differs on this.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #37 - May 12th, 2012 at 10:19am
 
Quote:
That is how he attained power, and I challenge you to produce any credible narrative that differs on this.


Sorry Abu I don't have a Koran on me at the moment. But I'm sure you do.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #38 - May 17th, 2012 at 5:59pm
 
So then if muslims denounce democracy who the hell let them in here? This is insane.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #39 - May 17th, 2012 at 6:12pm
 
The sustainability party has a policy against immigration of people who reject democracy, personal freedom etc.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #40 - May 17th, 2012 at 11:44pm
 
freediver wrote on May 11th, 2012 at 8:27am:
Christianity and Islam are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this. Christianity gives direct biblical support for the separation of church and state.


Only if you ignore what the Bible quotes Jesus as saying:

Quote:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the rabbis and the Pharisees, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Matthew 5:17-20]

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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #41 - May 18th, 2012 at 12:34am
 
freediver wrote on May 10th, 2012 at 7:43pm:
The Caliphs wielded power and ran the state directly. The monarchs ran the state directly in Europe. The pope could approve or disapprove, but even when the monarchs completely rejected his authority he was in practice powerless to prevent it. In Islam, the Caliph would have simply lopped off their heads (and did so many times) as soon as he found out and it would have been all over...No entirely true. The Caliph wields genuine power in a political sense like a dictator.


Not so with the early 'Rightly-guided' caliphs. The first caliph AbuBakr stated that this was not allowed:

Quote:
AbuBarzah said: I was with AbuBakr. He became angry at a man and uttered hot words. I said: "Do you permit me, Caliph (Successor) of the Messenger of God (peace & blessings of God upon him), that I cut off his neck?" These words of mine removed his anger; he stood and went in. He then sent for me and said: "What did you say just now?" I said: (I had said:) "Permit me that I cut off his neck." He said: "Would you do it if I ordered you?" I said: "Yes." He said: "No, I swear by God, this is not allowed..."

[Sunan Abu Dawood]



The 2nd Caliph, Umar Ibn al-Khattab, was known for the separating the powers of the judiciary and executive.

Quote:
Caliph Umar is particularly known for his administration of impartial justice. Justice during his reignwas supervised by Qazis (Civil Judges) who were appointed by the Caliph and were free from thecontrol of the Governors. He was the first man who separated judiciary from the executive, thusensuring free and even-handed justice. “The judge was named and is still named, “says VonHammer, “the Hakim-ush-sharaa, i.e., ruler through the law, for law rules through the declaration of  justice and the power of Governor carries out the declaration of it. Thus the Islamic administrationeven in its infancy proclaims in word and in deed the necessary separation between judicial andexecutive power.” Such separation of executive from judiciary has not been attained by some of themost civilized states in the modern times. The administration of justice during his time was perfectlyimpartial and he himself set an example by thoroughly carrying out the orders of the Qazi (Judge)...

...The success and efficiency of his administration mainly depended on his strict compliance over thestaff. When a governor was appointed, his letter of appointment which detailed his duties andprivileges was publicly read, so that people could know the terms of appointment and could holdhim responsible for abusing his power. Addressing a group of governors once he said,“Remember, Ihave not appointed you to rule over your people, but to serve them. You should set an example withyour good conduct, so that people may follow you.”...

.... The author of the Kitab al Khiraj writes that the lastwill of Hazrat Umar enjoined upon the Muslims to respect the assurances given to non-Muslims, andprotect their lives and properties even at the risk of their own. The Caliph had been too indulgent to non-Muslims and even pardoned their treasons (violations) which no present-day civilized government could tolerate. The non-Muslims were so much moved by these unusual sympathies of the Muslim conquerors that they sided with them in preference to their co-religionists. The Christians and Jews of Hems prayed for the return of Muslims. The Caliph, no doubt, imposed Jizia, a protection tax on the non-Muslims, but such tax was not realized from those non-Muslims who joined the Muslim army. Hazrat Abu Ubaidah, the Commander-in-chief of Muslim forces in Syria, returned the Jizia realized from the inhabitants of Hems when, due to emergency...he could  not undertake the responsibility of their protection.

[AN EXTRACT FROM THE BOOK OF KHWAJA JAMIL AHMAD, HAZRAT UMAR THE GREAT]


Umar Ibn al-Khattab speech upon election as caliph:

Quote:
"...O people, you have some rights on me which you can always claim. One of your rights is that if anyone of you comes to me with a claim, he should leave satisfied. Another of your rights is that you can demand that I take nothing unjustly from the revenues of the State. You can also demand that... I fortify your frontiers and do not put you into danger. It is also your right that if you go to battle I should look after your families as a father would while you are away. "O people, remain conscious of God, forgive me my faults and help me in my task. Assist me in enforcing what is good and forbidding what is evil. Advise me regarding the obligations that have been imposed upon me by God..."


Upon being assassinated whilst praying in the mosque by a Persian disbeliever, the mortally wounded Umar gave the following advise to the people as he lay dying from his wounds:

Quote:
I recommend my successor to be good to the early emigrants and realize their rights and to protect their honor and sacred things. And I also recommend him to be good to the Ansar (natives of the Islamic capital Madina) who before them, had homes (in Medina) and had adopted the Faith. He should accept the good of the righteous among them and should excuse their wrongdoers. I recommend him to abide by the rules and regulations concerning the Dhimmis (protected people from the Christians and the Jews) of God and His Messenger, to fulfill their contracts completely and fight for them and not to tax (overburden) them beyond their capabilities."

[Bukhari]
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #42 - May 18th, 2012 at 1:08am
 
Islam established many fundamentals of the modern democratic state, eg.

*election of caliphs
*separation of powers of executive and judiciary
*worker's rights
*social security
*family law
*criminal law

However, Islam does not permit the legislation that contradicts God's laws. God is the supreme ruler of the Universe, and none has the right to supersede His legislation.

God is very merciful that He allows the Disobedient Ones to breathe the air that He created. Soon though, they will only breathe the flames of Hell if they do not desist in their disobedience.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #43 - May 18th, 2012 at 8:35am
 
Quote:
Not so with the early 'Rightly-guided' caliphs. The first caliph AbuBakr stated that this was not allowed


Falah, your example does not appear relevant. Are you suggesting the Caliph pardoned a regional leader who attempted to split his state from the Caliphate?

Or are you merely suggesting they would have stoned him to death instead of lopping off his hed?

Quote:
election of caliphs


Is it true that Islam forbids non-Muslims from voting? What about women? Are all Muslim men allowed to vote?
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #44 - May 18th, 2012 at 10:41am
 
freediver wrote on May 18th, 2012 at 8:35am:
Is it true that Islam forbids non-Muslims from voting? What about women? Are all Muslim men allowed to vote?


I do not find that Islam forbids anyone from voting.
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