Australian Politics Forum - Religiosity and Narcissism

Yadda

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #45 - May 16^th, 2012 at 3:01pm

muso,

IMO, this guy [Nicolai Sennels, below] probably knows more about moslems, and the culture of ISLAM, from the perspective of personal contact [with moslems], than probably 95 % of non-moslems in the West.

And he is an academic, a psychologist.

But hey muso, Nicolai Sennels must be mistaken, coz he doesn't know your 'nice' moslem friends.

Right ???
/sarc off

Quote:

The Eternal Victim
I reported last year on the Danish psychologist Nicolai Sennels, who until 2008 worked at a secure youth institution Sønderbro in Copenhagen. He later wrote a book, Blandt Kriminelle Muslimer (“Amongst Criminal Muslims”), about his experiences dealing with young Muslim criminals in the Danish justice system.

Nicolai Sennels - - Ten years ago we had a horrible case in Denmark. Four young Muslim boys dragged a young woman by her hair all through the biggest shopping street — Strøget — in Copenhagen and tried to rape her. Even though she was screaming and it was clear that something was terribly wrong, nobody did anything to stop it. Imagine that: a young woman being dragged through the most busy street in Denmark — with lots of bystanders — and nobody tries to stop it.
.....as most other Danish, I was shocked about the rape story. Both the brutality and the fact that nobody helped that poor woman was devastating to me. Before this incident my ears were closed to those who criticized Islam and Muslim immigration but from then on I started listening with a more serious attitude. At that time I was still sure that successful integration was just a matter of time and that social injustice was the main responsible for the ethnic tensions. I was also too nervous about getting criticized to share my worries with others. Today things are different: I no longer vote for the Social Democrats. I also no longer care what people think of my opinions about Muslim culture etc.
.....Inviting people from a completely different culture to live in our countries is the biggest sociological experiment in history of mankind and it is clearly turning out bad. Making deep changes in the demographics of a whole continent is very hazardous. Immigrants who do not want to assimilate — meaning taking our culture to their heart and becoming Westerners — should not be here.
.....The worst thing is that the appeasers and the politically correct crowd has managed to scare a lot of people not to speak their opinion out loud. People are afraid of being called a racist or that others think bad about them. My advice is: Don’t care!

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.it/2010/01/eternal-victim.html

- - If we are only willing to help the weak when it is without any risk for ourselves, we are useless cowards. - -

Nicolai Sennels

muso,

This guy, Nicolai Sennels, is exactly correct about moslems / ISLAM imo.

He is not frightened, to confront the truth about ISLAM.

+++

muso,

You have claimed that your moslem friends are not Jihadists, and that

'They are perfectly normal people'

.

No moslem is a 'perfectly normal person'
muso.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON who says "I am a moslem."
, has chosen to embrace ISLAM and its tenets, .....ISLAM's tenets of unprovoked violence and oppression against non-moslems.

How likely is it that a person who >> declares <<.....

"I am a moslem!"

.....is unaware of what the principle tenets and laws of ISLAM are, regarding 'unbelievers' and apostates ?

According to ISLAM itself, a good 'moslem', is defined as a person who chooses to embrace the tenets and laws of ISLAM.

Here are just 3 examples from ISLAM's foundation text, the Koran, exhorting >> every moslem << to enmity and warfare against all non-moslems....

#1,
"Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask thee for no exemption from fighting...And Allah knoweth well those who do their duty."
Koran 9.44

#2,
"Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."
Koran 4.74-76
N.B. The implication which is projected by ISLAM, upon all non-moslems, that.....
"....[all] those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: [...and are ipso facto] the friends of Satan:..."

#3,
"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216
N.B. Allah himself, declares that fighting against the 'unbelievers' is a 'religious' obligation for every moslem.

There are dozens more examples of Allah and Mohammed exhorting moslems to enmity and warfare against non-moslems.

Your moslem friends are lying to you muso.

They are deceiving you.

ISLAMIC doctrine teaches *every moslem*, that moslems must not make friends of unbelievers except to "guard yourselves from them": i.e. pretend to be their friends so that you can strengthen yourself against them.

muso.......

If your friend is a moslem.

DO YOUR MOSLEM FRIENDS RESPECT WHAT THE KORAN COMMANDS ???

And if not so, then in what sense are your friends 'moslems' ?

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."

Koran 5.51

Because ISLAM itself, says a person must respect and embrace ISLAM's tenets and laws, TO BE A MOSLEM.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #46 - May 16^th, 2012 at 3:05pm

Let's just take a look at violent crime rates in various countries of the world and how they correlate against religion. The top 23 countries are predominantly Christian countries in South America and Southern Africa. Number 24 is Russia, which is a bit of a mixture. Then we have more Christian countries. Number 34 is the USA. Then we get to the first Muslim countries - Bangladesh is the highest.

The real problem based on those statistics is Christianity (mainly Catholicism). The Gulf States are even more peaceful than Sweden.

I know what it says in the Qur'an (at least vaguely) and I have a certain familiarity with what it says in the Bible. To be honest, both works of fiction shout to me of the the old adage about people who live in glass houses.

What is more telling in these traditional religions is what is left out of their wonderful codes of morality and ethics. Now we all know that bestiality is not mentioned in the Qur'an, much to the mirth of the general unwashed bigotry of this forum.

Tell me this - In today's society probably one of the most heinous crimes imaginable is pedophilia, but it isn't mentioned in the Bible at all, and many marriages have been performed over the ages by Christian clerics between adults and children - some as young as 7.

As a Christian, do you condone that?

Quote:

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."

So I guess you would take the view that Mohammed was a "False Prophet".

From 2 Peter:

Quote:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping

So many people to condemn, so little time. Roll Eyes

So......... Are you allowed to take false prophets as your friends? What do you think? (It's beginning to look a lot like Islam)

(No it's not - they're ..... DIFFERENT!)

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« Last Edit: May 16^th, 2012 at 3:22pm by muso »

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Yadda

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #47 - May 16^th, 2012 at 3:40pm

muso wrote on May 16^th, 2012 at 3:05pm:

Let's just take a look at violent crime rates in various countries of the world and how they correlate against religion. The top 23 countries are predominantly Christian countries in South America and Southern Africa. Number 24 is Russia, which is a bit of a mixture. Then we have more Christian countries. Number 34 is the USA. Then we get to the first Muslim countries - Bangladesh is the highest.

The real problem based on those statistics is Christianity (mainly Catholicism).

The Gulf States are even more peaceful than Sweden.

Get real muso.

Oppression is 'peace' ?

Is it 1984 again ['doublespeak'] ???

The Gulf States, where if you are complain about the oppression, they will often cut your head off !

Yes, that will promote a 'peaceful' docile society.
/sarc off

muso,

If the Gulf States are examples peace [and justice ?] how are they keeping the asylum seekers [from the Western nations] out ???

Are the moslems beating them off with sticks, at their borders ???

muso wrote on May 16^th, 2012 at 3:05pm:

I know what it says in the Qur'an (at least vaguely) and I have a certain familiarity with what it says in the Bible. To be honest, both works of fiction shout to me of the the old adage about people who live in glass houses.

What is more telling in these traditional religions is what is left out of their wonderful codes of morality and ethics. Now we all know that bestiality is not mentioned in the Qur'an, much to the mirth of the general unwashed bigotry of this forum.

Tell me this - In today's society probably one of the most heinous crimes imaginable is pedophilia, but it isn't mentioned in the Bible at all,

.....and many marriages have been performed over the ages by Christian clerics between adults and children - some as young as 7.

As a Christian, do you condone that?

No.

[I'll try to find something from OT scripture, relating to that issue.]

muso wrote on May 16^th, 2012 at 3:05pm:

Quote:

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."

So I guess you would take the view that Mohammed was a "False Prophet".

From 2 Peter:

Quote:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping

So many people to condemn, so little time. Roll Eyes

So......... Are you allowed to take false prophets as your friends? What do you think? (It's beginning to look a lot like Islam)

muso,

I will respond with non scriptural quote for you.....

"And what is good, Phaedrus? And what is not good? Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"

Plato
and found in, Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance Wink

And now an OT scriptural quote, condemning people like myself.

Isaiah 56:9
All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest.
10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #48 - May 18^th, 2012 at 8:12am

Yadda wrote on May 16^th, 2012 at 3:40pm:

No.

[I'll try to find something from OT scripture, relating to that issue.]

Be careful not to take it our of context, like you did with the Qur'an quotes that you took from jihad watch.
Quote:

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

I took the trouble to ask a Muslim what it means. As you may have noted, I did not try to interpret it myself, and I provided examples from the Bible that show how religious texts can be easily taken out of context. (I suspect that you know that I don't regard Christianity as a blood cult) Here is the explanation. (- and I will provide an acknowledgement only if prompted to do so by the source.)

Quote:

The context was in a climate where the fledgling Muslim community in Madinah was being besieged on all sides by a coalition of Pagan Arabs & Jewish tribes, and the Roman Christians to the north were starting to take notice of this new community, with a view to subduing them before they became too big, as were most of the revelations in the Qur'an.

This is the climate Muslims faced for the first few decades of the existence of the Islamic movement. They were severely persecuted and routinely attacked, and finally permission was given to them to stand tall and defend themselves against it.

And so they did....

The idea it's some open ended call to wage war on any non-believer you happen to come into contact with is just fanciful.

Kinda like saying the Bible says to rape and pillage any non-believer of the Bible you come across, because that's what it claims God commanded Moses (pbuh) to do.

So, like the Bible and most other sacred texts, The Qur'an contains historical narrative - no great surprise. It's just a question of taking it in context.

Quote:

And now an OT scriptural quote, condemning people like myself.

Now and again, you surprise me with a glimmer of humility. Wink

Quote:

muso,

If the Gulf States are examples peace [and justice ?] how are they keeping the asylum seekers [from the Western nations] out ???

Are the moslems beating them off with sticks, at their borders ???

No, but I don't think the Christians in Bolivia, Colombia, El Salvador and Venezuela are beating off all the immigrants at their borders either. Oppression is not the monopoly of any one religion or world view. It seems to be a trait of human nature. Unfortunately in this world, freedom is the exception rather than the rule.

I remember being introduced to a dealer in blood diamonds while I was in Guinea. After I had an interesting conversation at the bar, my colleague explained to me who he was. His thick gold chain and crucifix rivalled something the Pope might have worn. I understand that Central American drug lords are equally devout.

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« Last Edit: May 18^th, 2012 at 9:02am by muso »

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Yadda

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #49 - May 20^th, 2012 at 1:08am

muso wrote on May 18^th, 2012 at 8:12am:

Yadda wrote on May 16^th, 2012 at 3:40pm:

No.

[I'll try to find something from OT scripture, relating to that issue.]

Be careful not to take it our of context, like you did with the Qur'an quotes that you took from jihad watch.
Quote:

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

I took the trouble to ask a Muslim what it means. As you may have noted, I did not try to interpret it myself, and I provided examples from the Bible that show how religious texts can be easily taken out of context. (I suspect that you know that I don't regard Christianity as a blood cult) Here is the explanation. (- and I will provide an acknowledgement only if prompted to do so by the source.)

Quote:

The context was in a climate where the fledgling Muslim community in Madinah was being besieged on all sides by a coalition of Pagan Arabs & Jewish tribes, and the Roman Christians to the north were starting to take notice of this new community, with a view to subduing them before they became too big, as were most of the revelations in the Qur'an.

This is the climate Muslims faced for the first few decades of the existence of the Islamic movement. They were severely persecuted and routinely attacked, and finally permission was given to them to stand tall and defend themselves against it.

And so they did....

The idea it's some open ended call to wage war on any non-believer you happen to come into contact with is just fanciful.

Kinda like saying the Bible says to rape and pillage any non-believer of the Bible you come across, because that's what it claims God commanded Moses (pbuh) to do.

So, like the Bible and most other sacred texts, The Qur'an contains historical narrative - no great surprise. It's just a question of taking it in context.

muso,

You clearly accept the sincerity [of moslems] of the narrative imparted to you by your moslem friends,
....your peaceful, and moderate moslem friends, of course.

Good luck with that, .....for as long as it lasts.

But i wouldn't like to answer for you.
[......in that you choose to side with the moslem oppressors, and murderers, who portray themselves as 'good folk', while there is ample evidence to the contrary. .....e.g. the Koran [is a witness against moslems], and there is also the witness of the daily conduct of those moslems who have the freedom, to act freely [and to act 'righteously'], but instead, reveal themselves to be, the oppressors, and the murderers, of those who do not believe as they believe. but hey, that is all just a malicious slander against moslems. is that correct muso ????? because the 'peaceful' moslems, are all being 'mis-represented', by people like Yadda. right ??? ]

Hey muso,

Go the 'Arab spring'!!

Right ???

Standing 'firm' with your moslem friends, who are bringing their 'peace' philosophy to all of the world.
/sarc off

ISLAM says, "Dont believe on the son. Because Allah has no son."

Christianity says, "Believe on the son."

In the Koran, Allah [directly] states that he has no son [or 'children']....

"...Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son,...."
Koran 4.171

In the Koran, Allah [directly] CURSES the Jews and the Christians....

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! "
Koran 9.30

WHAT IS THE CONSEQUENCE OF MOSLEMS [or anyone else] REJECTING JESUS TESTIMONY ???

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

+++

[I'll try to find something from OT scripture, relating to that issue.]

p.s.
I did not find anything in the OT relating to the age of consent for marriage.

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« Last Edit: May 20^th, 2012 at 1:22am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #50 - May 20^th, 2012 at 11:07am

"there is enough treachery, hatred violence absurdity in the average
human being to supply any given army on any given day

and the best at murder are those who preach against it
and the best at hate are those who preach love
and the best at war finally are those who preach peace

those who preach god, need god
those who preach peace do not have peace
those who preach love do not have love"

excerpt from "The Genius of The Crowd" - Bukowski

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Yadda

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #51 - May 20^th, 2012 at 3:45pm

There is no freedom [liberty], without peace.
There is no peace, without justice.
There is no justice, without truth.
There is no truth, without courage.

Peace, only comes with the courage to confront the truth.

-Yadda

What abides in the hearts of all men ?

Courage, truth ?

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Is truth worth dying for ?

Do i need to ask ?

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 20979 A cat with a view	Re: Religiosity and Narcissism Reply #52 - May 20^th, 2012 at 3:51pm Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 3:45pm: Peace, only comes with the courage to confront the truth. -Yadda 'Tolerance' of evil, is for cowards, for liars, and very wicked men.
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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Religiosity and Narcissism Reply #53 - May 20^th, 2012 at 8:04pm Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 3:51pm: Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 3:45pm: Peace, only comes with the courage to confront the truth. -Yadda 'Tolerance' of evil, is for cowards, for liars, and very wicked men. Is Yadda's quotation mark signifying he lacks the courage of his convictions?
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Religiosity and Narcissism Reply #54 - May 20^th, 2012 at 8:15pm Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 3:45pm: Peace, only comes with the courage to confront the truth. Truth is not confronted. It is sought, discovered and accepted.
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Yadda

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #55 - May 22^nd, 2012 at 2:47am

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 8:15pm:

Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 3:45pm:

Peace, only comes with the courage to confront the truth.

Truth is not confronted.

It is sought, discovered and accepted.

Only by those who come to love it.

e.g.
Truth is often very elusive in a court of law.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 18:37
.......Jesus answered,.....To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Quote:

Truth is not confronted.

NoN,

Have you never known a small child to blatantly lie about something ?

And known that, for that child's own best interest, you must bring that child to see that he/she must confront what is true ???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #56 - May 22^nd, 2012 at 9:34am

Yadda wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 2:47am:

Quote:

Truth is not confronted.

NoN,

Have you never known a small child to blatantly lie about something ?

And known that, for that child's own best interest, you must bring that child to see that he/she must confront what is true ???

Truth confronts... It is never confronted. It is immutable and contingent on nothing and cannot be argued away.

To face the truth is not to confront the truth.

Lies are confronted.

A child must learn to confront his own lies and self-deception by learning to face the truth.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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muso

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #57 - May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:09am

Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 1:08am:

ISLAM says, "Dont believe on the son. Because Allah has no son."

Christianity says, "Believe on the son."

In the Koran, Allah [directly] states that he has no son [or 'children']....

"...Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son,...."
Koran 4.171

In the Koran, Allah [directly] CURSES the Jews and the Christians....

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! "
Koran 9.30

WHAT IS THE CONSEQUENCE OF MOSLEMS [or anyone else] REJECTING JESUS TESTIMONY ???

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Translation: Your religion is better than their religion. They reject Jesus and the new covenant. Big Deal. So does everybody else apart from most Christians. Jehovah Witnesses don't accept that Christ is God either.

Mormons have some interesting ideas too. For them, everybody gets everlasting life automatically as a result of the atonement.

You'll probably find some interesting differences between Roman Catholics and your one true religion too. They believe in a state of grace, but certain defined sins will exclude you from that.

It's all a question of emphasis. Different sects draw on different portions of the Bible.

So, given my own position - that of a Religious Naturalist (fully clothed), do I get eternal life too? (Hint: My wife is Christian) Do some digging. (1 Corinthians) Grin

Quote:

+++

[I'll try to find something from OT scripture, relating to that issue.]

p.s.
I did not find anything in the OT relating to the age of consent for marriage.

I knew you wouldn't, because it was common practice to take child brides up until the end of the 19th century in some parts of the world such as the Southern States of the US. The morality and standards of the 20th and 21st century have improved in that respect.

I don't judge Christianity for that. For what it's worth, no traditional religion speaks out against this point. Remember that point if some of your anti-Islamic buddies make such accusations against Islam.

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« Last Edit: May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:15am by muso »

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Yadda

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #58 - May 23^rd, 2012 at 12:25pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 9:34am:

Yadda wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 2:47am:

Quote:

Truth is not confronted.

NoN,

Have you never known a small child to blatantly lie about something ?

And known that, for that child's own best interest, you must bring that child to see that he/she must confront what is true ???

Truth confronts... It is never confronted. It is immutable and contingent on nothing and cannot be argued away.

To face the truth is not to confront the truth.

Lies are confronted.

A child must learn to confront his own lies and self-deception by learning to face the truth.

A good reply.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Religiosity and Narcissism
Reply #59 - May 24^th, 2012 at 2:52pm

muso wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:09am:

Translation: Your religion is better than their religion.

Without doubt [.....i.e. with conviction! Wink

], in my estimation.

But hey, i'm just a flawed human being.

Buit i have made a choice muso;

My religion is better than their religion.

muso wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:09am:

So, given my own position - that of a Religious Naturalist (fully clothed), do I get eternal life too? (Hint: My wife is Christian) Do some digging. (1 Corinthians) Grin

But muso,

Surely, you'd rather be with your friends in the after life ?

Your moslem friends.

muso,

My belief, my 'conviction', is that this life is merely a sorting process for souls.

And that we ourselves, are both the sort-ers, and, the sort-ees. [by our choices, we sort ourselves]

What is your choice muso ?

Who do you want to spend eternity with, myself, or your wife ???

You don't have to answer that. Grin

But don't worry your head over it though muso, because the God who created your living spirit, is a just God.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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